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VIDEO GAMER X 1
Paranoid Android
(10/27/03 8:40 pm)
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Re: Global Warming
Reuters Page 1 of 1

08:43 AM Oct. 27, 2003 PT

With solutions costing up to a mind-numbing $18,000,000,000,000,000, it is among the most expensive questions in history: "How do you stop people from causing dangerous global warming?"

Eighteen quadrillion dollars is almost 600 times the 2002 world gross domestic product, estimated by the World Bank at $32 trillion. If you glued 18 quadrillion dollar bills end to end, they would stretch way past Pluto.

Luckily, most estimates of the costs of curbing global warming by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change run to just hundreds of trillions of dollars over 100 years -- a relative pin prick for a growing world economy.

But the costs of cleaning up human emissions of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide produced by factories and cars, and of shifting toward cleaner energies such as solar or wind power, are starting to give governments nightmares.

"The long-term costs could be enormous," said Andrei Illarionov, an adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin who has backed away from previous promises to quickly ratify the U.N.'s Kyoto Protocol on curbing global warming.

Kyoto, a tiny first step toward reining in human emissions of non-toxic carbon dioxide from fossil fuels blamed for blanketing the planet and driving up temperatures, will collapse without Russia's approval. The United States pulled out in 2001.

"Maybe the money would be better spent on promoting economic growth, on ending poverty or on helping developing nations," he told a climate conference in Moscow this month, pointing to the highest IPCC estimate of almost $18 quadrillion by 2100.

Beyond Kyoto, which runs to 2012, climate experts say quadrillions of dollars in the 21st century may hang on interpretations of the word "dangerous."

At root is the 1992 U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change, ratified by the United States, which aims for "stabilization of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic (human) interference with the climate system."

A heat wave in Europe this year killed about 15,000 people in France. About 1,300 died in a heat wave in India. There were 562 tornadoes in the United States in May, more than any month on record. Was any of that caused by humans and "dangerous"?

If so, humanity would have to start slashing the use of the fossil fuels, a backbone of the world economy from coal-fired power plants and steel mills to trucks and cars.

IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri said the meaning of "dangerous" was largely a value judgment and up to governments to define. But he also told Reuters:

"Scientifically, one can ask ... whether the extent of sea level rise which has taken place, the damage to coral reefs, changes in precipitation levels and impacts on water availability in different parts of the world are not enough reasons for decision makers to decide what is dangerous."

The IPCC, representing a consensus among scientists, said in 2001 there was "new and stronger evidence" that people were behind global warming. Skeptics say shifts in solar radiation, for instance, might explain rising temperatures.

President Bush argues that Kyoto is too expensive and unfairly excludes developing countries. Another 119 countries have ratified the treaty and fear that inaction could bring even more catastrophic costs.

Rising sea levels could inundate some Pacific islands and ports around the world while a warmer climate may cause deserts, flooding and storms, and drive many species to extinction.

"We're on the way toward causing dangerous climate change," said Steven Guilbeault of the environmental group Greenpeace. "We should act now before it's too late."

The IPCC says all but one scenario for climate costs -- the $18 quadrillion tag -- would cut world GDP by 1 percent or less by 2050. "It has negligible impacts on the projected economic growth," the IPCC said in a report this month.

Even the strictest constraints would brake GDP by only 4.5 percent in 2050. Quadrillions of dollars apparently evaporate because they start in 1990 dollars and get eroded by inflation.

And the scenarios do not gauge benefits of averted climate change -- like the possibility of not having to build Dutch-style dykes -- nor examine short-cut solutions such as sucking carbon dioxide out of the air and burying it.

Even if fully implemented, Kyoto would be of little help. It would cut global temperatures by only 0.15 degrees Celsius (0.3 degrees Fahrenheit) by limiting emissions of gases like carbon dioxide -- a fraction of a forecast of a global temperature rise of 1.4-5.8 Celsius by 2100.

The Fonz
Upper Class Twit of the Year
(11/4/03 5:47 pm)
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Re: Global Warming
There's about half an inch of snow on the ground right now, and my friend's school, which is a bit farther north than I am right now, was cancelled due to snow. Global warming my ass.

VIDEO GAMER X 1
Paranoid Android
(11/4/03 6:39 pm)
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Re: Global Warming
Well if you live in an area that should receive snow, you will probably get it, however I can tell you this, it is now November 4th, and it was 90 Degrees today, and there was a summerlike thunderstorm, which is totally out of place for Florida this time of year. We're normally dry this time of year and temps are around 75 for a high and about 60 for low at night. I have had to turn the air conditioner on all month in October and now into November, which I didn't have to do hardly at all last year. Right now It's 72 in Pittsburg PA, but on the other side of a cold front its in the 30's and 20's, but that cold front is not expected to make it as far south as where I live or most people in the Southeast US so we still have to suffer with the heat and humidity.

The Fonz
Upper Class Twit of the Year
(11/4/03 6:42 pm)
Reply

Re: Global Warming
We've had snow as early as mid-october in years past, but cancelling school due to snow this early is almost unheard-of.

Blink1928
Erin's Canuck Bitch
(11/4/03 7:18 pm)
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Re: Global Warming
Suffer with 90 degree weather? Go to hell...

VIDEO GAMER X 1
Paranoid Android
(11/4/03 7:36 pm)
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Re: Global Warming
Quote:
Suffer with 90 degree weather? Go to hell...


If you live here and have to deal with it everyday it's not so fun, trust me. Florida is not dry heat like Arizona or the west, rather it's very humid and aweful here. It was 82 degrees in my house an hour ago and the sweat got to me and I had to turn the air on.

I long for days where it's 50 degrees outside and there is a nice breeze. I used to walk to school with a T-Shirt and Jeans in 40 degrees while other Floridians were bundled up with these huge jackets and mittens and hats, I used to laugh at those people. However I can't stand more than an hour in the heat without sweating profusely and finally ending up with a headache. I'm not out of shape either, I excercise rather frequently, it's just the unbearable heat and humidity combination we have here. Many days during the summer it's like 95% humidity and 95 degrees, and that just sucks trust me. Best place you can be on a day like that is the beach or a pool.

Tony Knightcrawler
My road, my journey.
(11/4/03 8:26 pm)
Reply

Re: Global Warming
I think the key things here on the price tag are two-fold:

1) That is the most expensive estimate of the most expensive proposal to solve global warming. I heard the second most expensive proposal costs less than 1% that amount.

2) A great number of the solutions in any proposal would have short-term benifits. For instance, replacing lightbulbs nation-wide with more efficient ones might cost billions of dollars, but save ten billion dollars per year. That's just an example, so whatever. A lot of those savings would offset other, more expensive solutions.

But the key thing in saving this world is reducing the population drastically. Giving tax cuts for having fewer than 3 children, and even more for every child less you have could slow or stop our population boom, perhaps even reverse it when you account for natural and unnatural deaths.

And yes, humid weather is much worse than dry weather. It's basically the opposite of wind-chill factor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
With Bow let us win Kine, with Bow in battle, with
Bow be victory in our hot encounters,
The Bow brings grief and sorrow to the foeman; armed
With Bow may we subdue all regions.
Close to his ear, as fain to speak, she presses, holding
Her well-loved friend in her embraces;
Strained on the bow, she whispers like a woman -- this
Bow-string that preserves us in the Combat.

Unholy the Divine
I Challenge You To A Duel
(11/4/03 9:29 pm)
Reply

Re: Global Warming
People get mixed up on this issue because they think everything will melt tomorrow. Just because you can't see the glaciers and ploar caps melt as fast as an ice cube being held in your hand doesn't mean it isn't happening. All it really takes is a few degreese above freezing an the chain starts. I'll buy that earth changes and continents and @#%$ move, but it still is no excuse for the excess polution. Like i said it isn't gonna happen in a day but there's a strong possibility that i could so that's why scientists are pushing the issue.


Jim: You ok, Gene?

Gene: Yea. I'll take this over the inside of a spaceship anyday.

Jim: I guess your cherry is officially popped now.

Gene: Drop it, or I'll pop that mouth of yours.

~Outlaw Star~

Tony Knightcrawler
My road, my journey.
(11/4/03 9:35 pm)
Reply

Re: Global Warming
I think probably the most convincing argument is that the smartest minds are the ones concerned with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
With Bow let us win Kine, with Bow in battle, with
Bow be victory in our hot encounters,
The Bow brings grief and sorrow to the foeman; armed
With Bow may we subdue all regions.
Close to his ear, as fain to speak, she presses, holding
Her well-loved friend in her embraces;
Strained on the bow, she whispers like a woman -- this
Bow-string that preserves us in the Combat.

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