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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Aquilasax or eBay?

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WW2
User ID: 8973393 Oct 12th 5:32 PM
I was just thinking; a c-Melody on eBay will cost about US$250 to US$300. Getting an overhaul will cost another US$400 to US$500 meaning that to get an eBay C-Mel into very good condition would cost about US$650 to US$800. With the Aquilasax C-Mel coming in at US$775 it seems to me to be a very good competitor for vintage C-Mels on eBay.

Of course I did ignore the issue of shipping. However since both need to be shipped, this should be about even.

So, what do you think?

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Oct 12th 7:10 PM
I'd go with the Aquilasax C-Mel. Because I like new Chinese Horns. I own 2 Jupiter Artists (A Baritone and a Soprano) and they are great. Let's face facts. The intonation on the Chinese horns along with the improvements over the years blows most of the vintage horns into the ground. This is speaking from a modern standpoint. Why should the Chinese C melody fare any different? So to reiterate with you Wade. I say Aquilasax? Here, here.

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Oct 12th 7:13 PM
Go ahead Vintage Maniacs. Crucify me. I'm resiliant. I will not die. I stand by my opinion 100%.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Oct 12th 7:26 PM
Well, you know I've always been a staunch supporter of Aquilasax, but, taking an un-biased view (I'm sure Steve won't mind) as I always try to do -

a) Shipping is not insignificant, as it's currently $85 (?) for an Aquilasax from China, whereas most of you guys are in the US, as are most of the 20's C-mels - and shipping within the US seems a lot cheaper. For players in Europe it's about equal, either from the US or China. I don't know at what level you guys in the US get to pay import duty/tax ?

b) Seems to be an established American tradition to take even new imported saxophones directly to a local tech to have it set-up. 'Money for old rope', but I guess you also need to factor in a couple of hundred dollars for that ? Of course your newly overhauled 20's C-Mel won't need that level of expenditure for a while... (Oh yeah?)

c) The shippers seem to be particularly unkind to Aquilasax Steve at the moment, in that the first few shipped C's seem to have needed a visit to the Tech's, there's a thread about that running on saxontheweb at the moment (guess you guys don't get out much ?) - so you may really need to factor in that set-up cost.

d) Then there's residual value - of course none of us ever want to sell any of our saxes, but there comes a time in every man's life.... It is difficult enough top recoup all the money spent on a 20's classic, but a lot of Chinese imports don't have much of a re-sell value. Of course, again, Steve's C may not devalue that much because it's a speciality instrument. Only time will tell.

I await with interest the sound sample from Nathan Haines, interesting times - the bottom could drop right out of the 20's C-mel market, so me and jazzbug1 could buy them all up for scrap value !

But somehow I think not, there'll always be a market for both vintage and new, as with Bb and Eb saxes now. "Different strokes for different folks", as Sly Stone so eloquently put it.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Oct 12th 7:35 PM
CRM - chill, this is a Forum, not the Spanish Inquisition. We only kill as a last resort...

I play a 90's Jupiter Bb Soprano, which sits alongside a 20's Conn C-Sop, a 30's Martin C-Mel, a 60's Martin Magna alto, and an 80's Gemeinhardt flute. (I usually leave the tenor, clari's and piccolo at home, unless specifically requested...)

So, a Vintage Enthusiast, yes. Vintage Maniac ? I think not.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Oct 13th 3:37 AM
No CRM, We will not crucify you...ignore you perhaps.
Most of us are not "vintage maniacs"; unlike you, we appreciate what is found to be good, regardless of age. Yet you "stand by my opinion 100%"...not having tried or played the modern equivalent.
So typical, so illogical.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Oct 13th 5:02 AM
Wade.
Another point, if I may, that you appear to have overlooked in your comparison between Vintage and Modern, viz. easy of playing, with Selmer keywork on the Modern. I am very fond of my Buescher TT, the build quality and the sound, but play it less than I should because of the clunky keywork...it is not as fast or as compliant as my modern horns.
I feel that this aspect gives a distinct edge to the Modern.
Although I have never had an intonation problem, others have; and, assuming good intonation, this should,I feel, be weighted in favour of the modern.
By the way Wade, what's all this $400/$500 for the rebuild?..You,at one stage were proposing to do your own repairs..."if at first, you do not succeed...try try again..." :-))

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Oct 13th 7:55 AM
I think Cool Runnin' Man thinks Jupiter instruments are made in China which they are not. They are made in Taiwan----not mainland China. While mainland China instruments are coming up in quality, some are and some are not.I own a Jupiter instrument and it is excellent (euphonium).

I think I explained before here that my conversation with a local repairman was that even new instruments coming into the store are checked over because there maybe some damage (or at least some adjustment to instruments) due to shipping. The shipping people are in most part non-musicians and think a sax dropped 15 feet will be ok.
I think vintage vrs new depends on the instrument. If both play in-tune it all depends on what the player wants in an instrument.I go for the think metal sound in an old instrument.

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Oct 13th 7:56 AM
Make that thick metal sound which I have not found in newer instruments.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Oct 13th 10:49 AM
Jim B.
That thick metal sound can still be obtained in new saxophones; specifically in the case of small European Companies who still make them using the methods they employed 100 years ago...Borgani and Rampone e Cazzani to name two.
By the way Jim, I owe you an apology in saying that new saxophones play straight out of the box without resort to a "tech". This has always been my experience, but recent events would suggest that it depends upon how well they were packed!

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Oct 13th 1:26 PM
Jim B - Cool Runnin' Man (me) knows a couple of things for sure. (1) According to the Chinese government "Taiwan is an integral part of China". I'm sure you know that Taiwan is part of China just as Catalina Island is part of the United States. I saw your banter with Captain Muggles a while back on the same subject. My statement still stands. Also; I once owned a beautiful, well made H. Couf soprano saxophone that was made of VERY thick brass. It sounded so dark and dull, because of the thickness of the brass that I had to sell it for a loss to some brand conscious dolt who wanted it just for the brand name. Guess what guys? The thinner the brass, the more it vibrates. Of course you don't want it paper thin. Then it would not be practical. It would be too fragile. The Chinese (under the guidance of French and Japanese technicians) have seemed to have discovered the proper thickness among other things. As far as "some are and some are not" of good quality. Any logical thinking person knows that. But Jupiter and others are "generally" of excellent quality. Also; Captain Bb, I don't need to play the "modern equivalent"of the C melody. Because the majority of vintage C mels are flawed with bad intonation and weird and clunky keywork, and I have played the modern equivalent (ergo; Chinese and Taiwanese) of all the other saxes: Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone saxes and Flutes. That in itself gives me the right to base an opinion on the New C melodys from China. I may be right or wrong. But I still stand 100% behind my opinion on them. Bingo!

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Oct 13th 9:22 PM
"I may be right or wrong. But I still stand 100% behind my opinion on them. Bingo!"

Cool Runnin" Man is your real name George W Bush?
My suggestion is that you continue to stand behind your opinions..... way behind.
Thin Brass is only one part of the instrument equation. Thin brass in the french horn I play gives the horn greater volume (all other factors being equal), not necessarily a brighter or darker sound. Other factors not being equal include silverplating or lacquer, mouthpiece type and many many variables.
While vintage instruments may have what you would consider clunky keywork, listen how past performers played on these "clunky keywork" instruments.

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Oct 13th 10:20 PM
They played that way because they were great players. I also stated that the Chinese have discovered the proper brass thickness "AMONG OTHER THINGS". That would encompass a lot of variables. Any good saxophone player knows that without the proper mouthpiece and reed combination, suited to the player, no horn will sound great. Great players can make chicken salad out of chicken s**t. That means that the great player compensates for poor ingredients (the horn) with superior talent expertise, along with the proper mouthpiece-reed combination and being able to use their flexible embouchure to lip in notes naturally to make up for poor intonation. Also plenty of practice on a sub standard horn by a talented player will make the horn sound great. Ergo; just because the older players using vintage horns sounded great, does not mean the horns were great. C'mon Jim. I'm experienced and you are experienced. We can debate these points on line until our fingers bleed. My opinion still stands unless you can shoot it down with some totally irrifutable facts. If not it remains "I say, You say". I never intended to insinuate that you were ignorant or totally wrong in your statements. Only that you are not entirely right. You r statement about Taiwan not being part of China was the only inaccurate statement that you made. So what? You're just not good at geography. It's getting late and I am starting to laugh at the futility of this dialogue. Give it up. It's hopeless.

bruce bailey
User ID: 9690803 Oct 14th 12:42 AM
Jeez!

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Oct 14th 1:44 AM

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Oct 14th 2:16 AM
Jim, mate, what you should have said was "As far as musical instrument production is concerned, Taiwan now seems to be every bit as good as Japan, whereas the current quality of saxes made in mainland China seems (at best) variable."

I was just momentarily gobsmacked at the thought of Bird, Pres, Rabbit, Hawk et al struggling along on clunky old horns - and how much better they'd have played on modern Chinese ones. Hmmm.

I may not be back for a while..............

ukebert
User ID: 9036243 Oct 14th 7:38 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't buiy an aquilasax until the teething problems are sorted out.

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Oct 14th 10:32 AM
Since saxes seemed to be made all over, we are getting to the point where we cannot compare one instrument brand to another. While my brother was in Taiwan he stopped in a factory where Conn instrument name were on the instruments. A YTS-23 Yamaha tenor I just sold said Japan but was assembled in USA.

As far as vintage vrs modern, I have heard some excellent clarinet playing on a albert system instrument. The mainland China instrument makers I don't think innovate but turn out models of other instruments. I think all of us make the most of the sax we have to play while dreaming of the perfect sax we will never have.

I believe CRM might be in the wrong forum since up til now all C melodies were vintage; he doesn't seem to like the vintage C melodys. I hope those here, are here because they like the C melody.

I have a couple of friends, two from China, one from Taiwan. The one from Taiwan does not consider herself part of the communist government. The reverse also holds true.

Castaway
User ID: 9182423 Oct 14th 10:41 AM
Cool Runnin' Man: Just don't pay any more attention. Someone will always want the last word. Let them have their way. I know what you are saying and I agree. The newer saxes are nicer to play and more in tune. Of course if someone is an adament vintage worshiper, nothing will change their mind. Facts and the truth mean nothing to that kind of person. (Concerning vintage versus modern).

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Oct 14th 11:36 AM
Jim.
You will have noticed that this, previously pleasant forum, has been hi jacked by an element whose maxim seems to be "...do not confuse me with the facts because I have made up my mind..." Interesting views on basic physics and acoustic theory also :-)

From this range it is now easy to see how Bush became President.

As stated so succinctly by Bruce, "Jeez!

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

WW2 User ID: 8973393	Oct 12th 5:32 PM I was just thinking; a c-Melody on eBay will cost about US$250 to US$300. Getting an overhaul will cost another US$400 to US$500 meaning that to get an eBay C-Mel into very good condition would cost about US$650 to US$800. With the Aquilasax C-Mel coming in at US$775 it seems to me to be a very good competitor for vintage C-Mels on eBay. Of course I did ignore the issue of shipping. However since both need to be shipped, this should be about even. So, what do you think?
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Oct 12th 7:10 PM I'd go with the Aquilasax C-Mel. Because I like new Chinese Horns. I own 2 Jupiter Artists (A Baritone and a Soprano) and they are great. Let's face facts. The intonation on the Chinese horns along with the improvements over the years blows most of the vintage horns into the ground. This is speaking from a modern standpoint. Why should the Chinese C melody fare any different? So to reiterate with you Wade. I say Aquilasax? Here, here.
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Oct 12th 7:13 PM Go ahead Vintage Maniacs. Crucify me. I'm resiliant. I will not die. I stand by my opinion 100%.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Oct 12th 7:26 PM Well, you know I've always been a staunch supporter of Aquilasax, but, taking an un-biased view (I'm sure Steve won't mind) as I always try to do - a) Shipping is not insignificant, as it's currently $85 (?) for an Aquilasax from China, whereas most of you guys are in the US, as are most of the 20's C-mels - and shipping within the US seems a lot cheaper. For players in Europe it's about equal, either from the US or China. I don't know at what level you guys in the US get to pay import duty/tax ? b) Seems to be an established American tradition to take even new imported saxophones directly to a local tech to have it set-up. 'Money for old rope', but I guess you also need to factor in a couple of hundred dollars for that ? Of course your newly overhauled 20's C-Mel won't need that level of expenditure for a while... (Oh yeah?) c) The shippers seem to be particularly unkind to Aquilasax Steve at the moment, in that the first few shipped C's seem to have needed a visit to the Tech's, there's a thread about that running on saxontheweb at the moment (guess you guys don't get out much ?) - so you may really need to factor in that set-up cost. d) Then there's residual value - of course none of us ever want to sell any of our saxes, but there comes a time in every man's life.... It is difficult enough top recoup all the money spent on a 20's classic, but a lot of Chinese imports don't have much of a re-sell value. Of course, again, Steve's C may not devalue that much because it's a speciality instrument. Only time will tell. I await with interest the sound sample from Nathan Haines, interesting times - the bottom could drop right out of the 20's C-mel market, so me and jazzbug1 could buy them all up for scrap value ! But somehow I think not, there'll always be a market for both vintage and new, as with Bb and Eb saxes now. "Different strokes for different folks", as Sly Stone so eloquently put it.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Oct 12th 7:35 PM CRM - chill, this is a Forum, not the Spanish Inquisition. We only kill as a last resort... I play a 90's Jupiter Bb Soprano, which sits alongside a 20's Conn C-Sop, a 30's Martin C-Mel, a 60's Martin Magna alto, and an 80's Gemeinhardt flute. (I usually leave the tenor, clari's and piccolo at home, unless specifically requested...) So, a Vintage Enthusiast, yes. Vintage Maniac ? I think not.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Oct 13th 3:37 AM No CRM, We will not crucify you...ignore you perhaps. Most of us are not "vintage maniacs"; unlike you, we appreciate what is found to be good, regardless of age. Yet you "stand by my opinion 100%"...not having tried or played the modern equivalent. So typical, so illogical.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Oct 13th 5:02 AM Wade. Another point, if I may, that you appear to have overlooked in your comparison between Vintage and Modern, viz. easy of playing, with Selmer keywork on the Modern. I am very fond of my Buescher TT, the build quality and the sound, but play it less than I should because of the clunky keywork...it is not as fast or as compliant as my modern horns. I feel that this aspect gives a distinct edge to the Modern. Although I have never had an intonation problem, others have; and, assuming good intonation, this should,I feel, be weighted in favour of the modern. By the way Wade, what's all this $400/$500 for the rebuild?..You,at one stage were proposing to do your own repairs..."if at first, you do not succeed...try try again..." :-))
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Oct 13th 7:55 AM I think Cool Runnin' Man thinks Jupiter instruments are made in China which they are not. They are made in Taiwan----not mainland China. While mainland China instruments are coming up in quality, some are and some are not.I own a Jupiter instrument and it is excellent (euphonium). I think I explained before here that my conversation with a local repairman was that even new instruments coming into the store are checked over because there maybe some damage (or at least some adjustment to instruments) due to shipping. The shipping people are in most part non-musicians and think a sax dropped 15 feet will be ok. I think vintage vrs new depends on the instrument. If both play in-tune it all depends on what the player wants in an instrument.I go for the think metal sound in an old instrument.
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Oct 13th 7:56 AM Make that thick metal sound which I have not found in newer instruments.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Oct 13th 10:49 AM Jim B. That thick metal sound can still be obtained in new saxophones; specifically in the case of small European Companies who still make them using the methods they employed 100 years ago...Borgani and Rampone e Cazzani to name two. By the way Jim, I owe you an apology in saying that new saxophones play straight out of the box without resort to a "tech". This has always been my experience, but recent events would suggest that it depends upon how well they were packed!
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Oct 13th 1:26 PM Jim B - Cool Runnin' Man (me) knows a couple of things for sure. (1) According to the Chinese government "Taiwan is an integral part of China". I'm sure you know that Taiwan is part of China just as Catalina Island is part of the United States. I saw your banter with Captain Muggles a while back on the same subject. My statement still stands. Also; I once owned a beautiful, well made H. Couf soprano saxophone that was made of VERY thick brass. It sounded so dark and dull, because of the thickness of the brass that I had to sell it for a loss to some brand conscious dolt who wanted it just for the brand name. Guess what guys? The thinner the brass, the more it vibrates. Of course you don't want it paper thin. Then it would not be practical. It would be too fragile. The Chinese (under the guidance of French and Japanese technicians) have seemed to have discovered the proper thickness among other things. As far as "some are and some are not" of good quality. Any logical thinking person knows that. But Jupiter and others are "generally" of excellent quality. Also; Captain Bb, I don't need to play the "modern equivalent"of the C melody. Because the majority of vintage C mels are flawed with bad intonation and weird and clunky keywork, and I have played the modern equivalent (ergo; Chinese and Taiwanese) of all the other saxes: Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone saxes and Flutes. That in itself gives me the right to base an opinion on the New C melodys from China. I may be right or wrong. But I still stand 100% behind my opinion on them. Bingo!
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Oct 13th 9:22 PM "I may be right or wrong. But I still stand 100% behind my opinion on them. Bingo!" Cool Runnin" Man is your real name George W Bush? My suggestion is that you continue to stand behind your opinions..... way behind. Thin Brass is only one part of the instrument equation. Thin brass in the french horn I play gives the horn greater volume (all other factors being equal), not necessarily a brighter or darker sound. Other factors not being equal include silverplating or lacquer, mouthpiece type and many many variables. While vintage instruments may have what you would consider clunky keywork, listen how past performers played on these "clunky keywork" instruments.
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Oct 13th 10:20 PM They played that way because they were great players. I also stated that the Chinese have discovered the proper brass thickness "AMONG OTHER THINGS". That would encompass a lot of variables. Any good saxophone player knows that without the proper mouthpiece and reed combination, suited to the player, no horn will sound great. Great players can make chicken salad out of chicken s**t. That means that the great player compensates for poor ingredients (the horn) with superior talent expertise, along with the proper mouthpiece-reed combination and being able to use their flexible embouchure to lip in notes naturally to make up for poor intonation. Also plenty of practice on a sub standard horn by a talented player will make the horn sound great. Ergo; just because the older players using vintage horns sounded great, does not mean the horns were great. C'mon Jim. I'm experienced and you are experienced. We can debate these points on line until our fingers bleed. My opinion still stands unless you can shoot it down with some totally irrifutable facts. If not it remains "I say, You say". I never intended to insinuate that you were ignorant or totally wrong in your statements. Only that you are not entirely right. You r statement about Taiwan not being part of China was the only inaccurate statement that you made. So what? You're just not good at geography. It's getting late and I am starting to laugh at the futility of this dialogue. Give it up. It's hopeless.
bruce bailey User ID: 9690803	Oct 14th 12:42 AM Jeez!
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Oct 14th 1:44 AM
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Oct 14th 2:16 AM Jim, mate, what you should have said was "As far as musical instrument production is concerned, Taiwan now seems to be every bit as good as Japan, whereas the current quality of saxes made in mainland China seems (at best) variable." I was just momentarily gobsmacked at the thought of Bird, Pres, Rabbit, Hawk et al struggling along on clunky old horns - and how much better they'd have played on modern Chinese ones. Hmmm. I may not be back for a while..............
ukebert User ID: 9036243	Oct 14th 7:38 AM Hmm, I wouldn't buiy an aquilasax until the teething problems are sorted out.
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Oct 14th 10:32 AM Since saxes seemed to be made all over, we are getting to the point where we cannot compare one instrument brand to another. While my brother was in Taiwan he stopped in a factory where Conn instrument name were on the instruments. A YTS-23 Yamaha tenor I just sold said Japan but was assembled in USA. As far as vintage vrs modern, I have heard some excellent clarinet playing on a albert system instrument. The mainland China instrument makers I don't think innovate but turn out models of other instruments. I think all of us make the most of the sax we have to play while dreaming of the perfect sax we will never have. I believe CRM might be in the wrong forum since up til now all C melodies were vintage; he doesn't seem to like the vintage C melodys. I hope those here, are here because they like the C melody. I have a couple of friends, two from China, one from Taiwan. The one from Taiwan does not consider herself part of the communist government. The reverse also holds true.
Castaway User ID: 9182423	Oct 14th 10:41 AM Cool Runnin' Man: Just don't pay any more attention. Someone will always want the last word. Let them have their way. I know what you are saying and I agree. The newer saxes are nicer to play and more in tune. Of course if someone is an adament vintage worshiper, nothing will change their mind. Facts and the truth mean nothing to that kind of person. (Concerning vintage versus modern).
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Oct 14th 11:36 AM Jim. You will have noticed that this, previously pleasant forum, has been hi jacked by an element whose maxim seems to be "...do not confuse me with the facts because I have made up my mind..." Interesting views on basic physics and acoustic theory also :-) From this range it is now easy to see how Bush became President. As stated so succinctly by Bruce, "Jeez!