C Melody Saxophone Forum

Swirve.com Links: Swirve.com Free Email Games Fantasy Sports E-Cards Movies Horoscopes Freebies Web Search

NOTICE: Beginning July 10th, 2008, this message board service will no longer be active or available for use.

C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / What a lovely sound....

Next 20 Messages

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 28th 10:04 AM
(from my posting on saxontheweb, for those who don't stray onto modern forums with links and other sensible features...)

I remembered seeing a slightly obscure link on 'Saxmong' Steve's Aquilasax website. It said - For a modern style in C try "just maybe" http://myspace.com/nathanhaines

So anyway, paste this link into your browser -

http://myspace.com/nathanhaines

- then click on "Just Maybe Live" and in between the vocals is a lovely flowing sax solo that sounds just like Stan Getz on a straight-neck Conn C-Mel. Should even impress jazzbug1 !

I emailed Nathan, and he said,(quote) "It's a 1923 Gold artist model I found in mint unplayed condition....the mouthpiece was an Otto link re-bored to fit the neck and works fine for me. It's my fave 'jazz' horn as the sound is so clearly vintage with a great feel.It doesn't project like a tenor and I can't get my head around the harmonics (all different for some reason) so the range is limited but I do love playing it."

Gorgeous gentle sound, but he 'boots' it along, and I assume he meant an alto (sounds like an ebonite, rather than metal, but i can't be sure ?) Otto Link as he talked about re-boring the neck.

Anyway, maybe an example of a C Tenor sounding like a (slightly more modern) C Tenor, because it certainly doesn't sound like either an alto or tenor.

I keep listening to it, I know other contemporary players have recorded C-Mel - but this solo just hits the spot for me ! Nathan also said "I'm playing it on my new album due for release in Nov this year."

http://www.nathanhaines.com/

Another convert to C-Mels !!!

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Jun 28th 9:04 PM
alan (uk)/I had to listen to that solo over and over again. It is simply gorgeous and mystical. It sounds like a C melody SHOULD sound. It is obvious to the trained ear that it is neither a tenor or an alto. This guy (Nathan Haines) has got the perfect sound and control on his C melody. It is something to strive for. I love it. Thankyou so much for turning us on to him, and that beautiful cut {Just Maybe Live}.

ukebert
User ID: 0443584 Jun 28th 9:06 PM
It is a lovely solo. A very good indicator of what the c melody can do, such a distinctive sound.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 4:09 AM
Yes, very nice; I liked it the first time that I heard it, but, on reflection, it hardly shews what the saxophone can do. Just that bit too sweet.
For my taste (or lack of it) it lacks the grit and balls of a saxophone. In reality, if THAT sound is your goal, have you tried a bass clarinet?...plenty of those about...non clunky keywork and good intonation. Problem solved. :-)
My disclaimer being that I belong to the Lee Allen school of saxophone.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 4:43 AM
Beautifully played of course...but that is the typical sound of a Conn S/N.
Shall I get my coat? :-))

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 29th 5:54 AM
I feel I have to defend both the player, and the solo (although I do understand that it's more of an observation, Beeflat, so I'm just making a couple of observations too...). From the very 'muted' mouthpieces supplied originally with the C-Mels, it's obvious that 'slick and sweet' was probably what the C-Mel was designed for - as were most 20's saxophones if you use the original mpcs.

Because 20's C-Mels are such a 'blank canvas', we can now use a wide range of mouthpieces to a)experiment with whatever sound we'd like to produce as individuals in the 21st century, and, b)utilise the very useful fact that they are in 'C'.

I gave up on straight-neck Conns for a variety of reasons, but I may (respectfully) suggest to Nathan that he invest in one of Steve's replacement curved necks to see what the difference is in sound - and he'll probably find those missing harmonics in more conventional places.

'till then I'll enjoy the solo, especially as I listened to so Much Stan Getz in my youth - brings back memories of that as well... Leave your coat on the hook, you don't get away that easily !

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 6:50 AM
Of course you are right, beautiful sound and beautifully played.....just not my thing.
I really, really, cannot understand the "advantage of being in C", am I missing something.? Apart from reading the top line of piano music, if that's what you want, I genuinely fail to see any other advantage. When playing a saxophone:-
Not reading, ie. winging it....(assuming some level of competence) The key does not matter; it's all about finger positions and muscle memory.
Reading the dots.... (assuming the correct transposition) just read what it says on the music and the right sounds should result.

Castaway
User ID: 9182423 Jun 29th 7:23 AM
Captain Bb: I agree with your statement, "What's the advantage of being in C"? What is the advantage?. I know this is a C melody forum. But this obsession with the key of C sort of disturbs me. I used to play with a keyboard player many years ago who played EVERY SONG in the key of C. Because it was the only key he was able to play in. Since then, musicians that are obsessed with that key makes me think that they are technically non adept on their instrument, whatever that instrument may be. As far as your observation on the Nathan Haines solo on "Just Maybe Live" and your opinion of it. You don't need to "Get your coat". It is your personal opinion and is quite valid. I personally loved that solo, but I see your point of view quite clearly ands support it.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 7:51 AM
Castaway.
A huge sigh of relief could be heard from most keyboard when the transposing button was introduced.
In my experience, when a piece is in a flat key, the guitarist reaches for his capo. However, they look at me blankly when I tell them that I have no capo for their favoured keys of E and B...we just have to get on with it.
Even classical harpists (the stringy, not the blowy type), "cheat" in that they have a pedal which raises the pitch by a semitone and another which lowers the pitch to the same degree.....consequently they only have to learn their scales up to, and including, A; every other key is available to them by pressing the appropriate pedal. They call it an aid: I prefer the word incompetence! :-)

ukebert
User ID: 0443584 Jun 29th 7:52 AM
It's not being in the key of C, it's being IN the key of C...

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 7:54 AM
Missed out the word "players" in my first paragraph....sorry.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 8:00 AM
Ukebert.
I still do not understand....it depends upon which buttons you press. L/H middle finger we call C...but it it is only what we CALL it...it need not be.
As I write this, my watch tells me that it is 14.03, but that is an arbitrary scale of time that we have invented...cavemen did not call it 14.03...it was either light or dark. Same with temperature....simply a convenient measurement.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 29th 11:34 AM
Beeflat (hopefully quick posting, but I doubt it) - I don't have perfect pitch, but I remember pitch and have great 'relative pitch'.

All my musical life, pro and semi-pro (which I enjoyed more, much less hassle) I've played with an amazing variety of small bands and groups. Often at short notice, often 'depping', often without much in the way of formal - written - music. Or where there was music, often not sax parts - just keyboard, especially from visiting cabaret artists backing parts - Hah ! (I suspect you're beginning to realise where I'm coming from, and going to ?)

So, I went on a most gigs with alto (Eb) tenor/clari/sop (Bb) and flute (C)...... Anyway, after playing tenor for maybe five minute, the band/group would go into another number, if I was lucky I'd recognise it, or maybe someone would even shout out the name (it helps....) along with "flute please"...

So, my ear (attuned to Bb tenor) would say "ah, this is in 'D', and my fingers would conveniently forget I'd switched to a C instrument... :-(

Momentary embarrassment. Involuntary ejaculation, then brain, instrument, fingers and ear sync..... Next number someone shouts "alto" (in Eb now), and off we go again - get my drift...?

If I didn't know the number, I'd generally wander off towards the keboard, for a quick 'read over the shoulder', OK, transposition required ? up a tone ? down a third ? Phew....

All in the life of a 'jobbing journeyman muso', but after a couple of pints of 'Special', required to get thro' most gigs, can get confusing. I coped, but (if like now) I'd had C-tenor, C-Sop, and C-Clari, I'd have coped better, and maybe played more expressively rather than occupy the brain juggling notes..... Why make life difficult ?

And I have maybe a couple of hundred chord sequences - probably many more - lodged in my brain, in the standard key it was usually played in - but some for alto, some for tenor, some for flute, depended what I usually like to play for a certain number.... Mental strife if I wanted a change instruments, same on a gig where a bass player calls out the chord sequence - here we go transposing again.....

I seem to have lost the thread, and this certainly isn't a short posting, but life would have been easier if I didn't have to juggle Bb/Eb/C on a nightly basis. I'd have liked to switch from tenor to alto in the middle of some soul/funk numbers, but didn't fancy being clouted on the head by a trumpet if I didn't mentally transpose the riffs correctly (mind you, the harmonies could sound very chinese at times if I forgot....).

So, yes I can transpose, I learnt well, but why ? "C RULES", OK ? Didn't then, but does now. So where are the gigs, now that I'm ready ? ;-((

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 29th 11:39 AM
Sorry, none of that had anything to do with Nathan's excellent solo, so the posting can be deleted, if anyone so wishes....

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 29th 1:57 PM
Yes Alan...all very logical.
The moral must be "stick to one tuning". This, surely, is why many of the greats stuck to tenor and soprano; they didn't bog themselves down with the problems of improvising and transposing the Vulgarian Nose Flute tuned to G# minor!

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 29th 3:01 PM
'snot the key that Roland Kirk played his nose flute in.....ard,arf..

Cool Runnin' Man
User ID: 9725373 Jun 29th 11:14 PM
Castaway and Bb/ I agree with the two of you about the obsession of playing in the key of C. I really believe that players that favor this key and C pitched instruments do so because it is easy to play with this combination. (The key and the instrument). But alas, in real life you must know how to play in ANY key no matter what your instrument pitch is. If you can't. You are probably an inferior player. You may be able to rip off a great solo in that key. But I can rip of the same quality solo no matter what key I play in or no matter what sax I am using. This is not bragging. It is just saying that I have been playing for years and have gotten it down because of constant practice and experience. I and most of my contemporaries have transcended the key of C crutch. If a musician is satisfied by taking the easy way out, then he or she will most likely never progress past that point. If they are satisfied with that. Then so be it. I have no problem with that. Although I would never hire them to gig with me. But if one of those types asked me to play a job with them.I would gladly take that gig. After all, just think how easy that gig would be. Like Dire Straits sings. "Money for Nothin'".

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 30th 4:13 AM
I think you have to split the issues rho' - although I favour 'C' instruments, for all the reasons above, I'm also totally fluent in the key of C#/Db from playing alto with guitarists in E ! Although I do prefer 'thinking' in C#, rather than Db.

So don't let's 'dumb-down' musicians just for playing C instruments...... In fact, since assessing Steve's Aquilasax alto, I now seem to enjoy playing (my old Martin Magna) Eb-Alto and C-Soprano combination, plus flute - poor old C-Mel is gathering cobwebs !

So I've come full citcle, as they say....

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Jun 30th 4:23 AM
In case I didn't make it clear, I can also play perfectly well in all the other keys, not just C and C#...

I've never met a sax player 'stuck in C' - although I've met a few who thought C.G and D were the only civilised keys.... I guess they were allegic to havinng to move away from the pearls onto tose nasty palm and pinkie keys ! Wimps...

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 30th 5:36 AM
Alan...Almost as a throwaway line you have hit the nail on the head "...those nasty palm and pinkie keys".
Take a look at the Real Book and you will see that the keys are invariably saxophone friendly....C, F, Bb and Eb.
Until electric guitars hit the scene with their propensity for nasty sharp keys there was really no need for the saxophonist to delve into the unknown realms of the G# key.
I have a lifelong pro friend, a superb, world class saxophonist. When he joined our blues band he insisted that everything played in E was changed to F, and everything usually in A reverted to Bb. In all the years that he had been playing, there had been no need for him to get out of his comfort zone.
Ironically, he seemed just as fluid in F# or C# as, I know, Alan, are you.

Next 20 Messages

alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 28th 10:04 AM (from my posting on saxontheweb, for those who don't stray onto modern forums with links and other sensible features...) I remembered seeing a slightly obscure link on 'Saxmong' Steve's Aquilasax website. It said - For a modern style in C try "just maybe" http://myspace.com/nathanhaines So anyway, paste this link into your browser - http://myspace.com/nathanhaines - then click on "Just Maybe Live" and in between the vocals is a lovely flowing sax solo that sounds just like Stan Getz on a straight-neck Conn C-Mel. Should even impress jazzbug1 ! I emailed Nathan, and he said,(quote) "It's a 1923 Gold artist model I found in mint unplayed condition....the mouthpiece was an Otto link re-bored to fit the neck and works fine for me. It's my fave 'jazz' horn as the sound is so clearly vintage with a great feel.It doesn't project like a tenor and I can't get my head around the harmonics (all different for some reason) so the range is limited but I do love playing it." Gorgeous gentle sound, but he 'boots' it along, and I assume he meant an alto (sounds like an ebonite, rather than metal, but i can't be sure ?) Otto Link as he talked about re-boring the neck. Anyway, maybe an example of a C Tenor sounding like a (slightly more modern) C Tenor, because it certainly doesn't sound like either an alto or tenor. I keep listening to it, I know other contemporary players have recorded C-Mel - but this solo just hits the spot for me ! Nathan also said "I'm playing it on my new album due for release in Nov this year." http://www.nathanhaines.com/ Another convert to C-Mels !!!
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Jun 28th 9:04 PM alan (uk)/I had to listen to that solo over and over again. It is simply gorgeous and mystical. It sounds like a C melody SHOULD sound. It is obvious to the trained ear that it is neither a tenor or an alto. This guy (Nathan Haines) has got the perfect sound and control on his C melody. It is something to strive for. I love it. Thankyou so much for turning us on to him, and that beautiful cut {Just Maybe Live}.
ukebert User ID: 0443584	Jun 28th 9:06 PM It is a lovely solo. A very good indicator of what the c melody can do, such a distinctive sound.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 4:09 AM Yes, very nice; I liked it the first time that I heard it, but, on reflection, it hardly shews what the saxophone can do. Just that bit too sweet. For my taste (or lack of it) it lacks the grit and balls of a saxophone. In reality, if THAT sound is your goal, have you tried a bass clarinet?...plenty of those about...non clunky keywork and good intonation. Problem solved. :-) My disclaimer being that I belong to the Lee Allen school of saxophone.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 4:43 AM Beautifully played of course...but that is the typical sound of a Conn S/N. Shall I get my coat? :-))
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 29th 5:54 AM I feel I have to defend both the player, and the solo (although I do understand that it's more of an observation, Beeflat, so I'm just making a couple of observations too...). From the very 'muted' mouthpieces supplied originally with the C-Mels, it's obvious that 'slick and sweet' was probably what the C-Mel was designed for - as were most 20's saxophones if you use the original mpcs. Because 20's C-Mels are such a 'blank canvas', we can now use a wide range of mouthpieces to a)experiment with whatever sound we'd like to produce as individuals in the 21st century, and, b)utilise the very useful fact that they are in 'C'. I gave up on straight-neck Conns for a variety of reasons, but I may (respectfully) suggest to Nathan that he invest in one of Steve's replacement curved necks to see what the difference is in sound - and he'll probably find those missing harmonics in more conventional places. 'till then I'll enjoy the solo, especially as I listened to so Much Stan Getz in my youth - brings back memories of that as well... Leave your coat on the hook, you don't get away that easily !
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 6:50 AM Of course you are right, beautiful sound and beautifully played.....just not my thing. I really, really, cannot understand the "advantage of being in C", am I missing something.? Apart from reading the top line of piano music, if that's what you want, I genuinely fail to see any other advantage. When playing a saxophone:- Not reading, ie. winging it....(assuming some level of competence) The key does not matter; it's all about finger positions and muscle memory. Reading the dots.... (assuming the correct transposition) just read what it says on the music and the right sounds should result.
Castaway User ID: 9182423	Jun 29th 7:23 AM Captain Bb: I agree with your statement, "What's the advantage of being in C"? What is the advantage?. I know this is a C melody forum. But this obsession with the key of C sort of disturbs me. I used to play with a keyboard player many years ago who played EVERY SONG in the key of C. Because it was the only key he was able to play in. Since then, musicians that are obsessed with that key makes me think that they are technically non adept on their instrument, whatever that instrument may be. As far as your observation on the Nathan Haines solo on "Just Maybe Live" and your opinion of it. You don't need to "Get your coat". It is your personal opinion and is quite valid. I personally loved that solo, but I see your point of view quite clearly ands support it.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 7:51 AM Castaway. A huge sigh of relief could be heard from most keyboard when the transposing button was introduced. In my experience, when a piece is in a flat key, the guitarist reaches for his capo. However, they look at me blankly when I tell them that I have no capo for their favoured keys of E and B...we just have to get on with it. Even classical harpists (the stringy, not the blowy type), "cheat" in that they have a pedal which raises the pitch by a semitone and another which lowers the pitch to the same degree.....consequently they only have to learn their scales up to, and including, A; every other key is available to them by pressing the appropriate pedal. They call it an aid: I prefer the word incompetence! :-)
ukebert User ID: 0443584	Jun 29th 7:52 AM It's not being in the key of C, it's being IN the key of C...
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 7:54 AM Missed out the word "players" in my first paragraph....sorry.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 8:00 AM Ukebert. I still do not understand....it depends upon which buttons you press. L/H middle finger we call C...but it it is only what we CALL it...it need not be. As I write this, my watch tells me that it is 14.03, but that is an arbitrary scale of time that we have invented...cavemen did not call it 14.03...it was either light or dark. Same with temperature....simply a convenient measurement.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 29th 11:34 AM Beeflat (hopefully quick posting, but I doubt it) - I don't have perfect pitch, but I remember pitch and have great 'relative pitch'. All my musical life, pro and semi-pro (which I enjoyed more, much less hassle) I've played with an amazing variety of small bands and groups. Often at short notice, often 'depping', often without much in the way of formal - written - music. Or where there was music, often not sax parts - just keyboard, especially from visiting cabaret artists backing parts - Hah ! (I suspect you're beginning to realise where I'm coming from, and going to ?) So, I went on a most gigs with alto (Eb) tenor/clari/sop (Bb) and flute (C)...... Anyway, after playing tenor for maybe five minute, the band/group would go into another number, if I was lucky I'd recognise it, or maybe someone would even shout out the name (it helps....) along with "flute please"... So, my ear (attuned to Bb tenor) would say "ah, this is in 'D', and my fingers would conveniently forget I'd switched to a C instrument... :-( Momentary embarrassment. Involuntary ejaculation, then brain, instrument, fingers and ear sync..... Next number someone shouts "alto" (in Eb now), and off we go again - get my drift...? If I didn't know the number, I'd generally wander off towards the keboard, for a quick 'read over the shoulder', OK, transposition required ? up a tone ? down a third ? Phew.... All in the life of a 'jobbing journeyman muso', but after a couple of pints of 'Special', required to get thro' most gigs, can get confusing. I coped, but (if like now) I'd had C-tenor, C-Sop, and C-Clari, I'd have coped better, and maybe played more expressively rather than occupy the brain juggling notes..... Why make life difficult ? And I have maybe a couple of hundred chord sequences - probably many more - lodged in my brain, in the standard key it was usually played in - but some for alto, some for tenor, some for flute, depended what I usually like to play for a certain number.... Mental strife if I wanted a change instruments, same on a gig where a bass player calls out the chord sequence - here we go transposing again..... I seem to have lost the thread, and this certainly isn't a short posting, but life would have been easier if I didn't have to juggle Bb/Eb/C on a nightly basis. I'd have liked to switch from tenor to alto in the middle of some soul/funk numbers, but didn't fancy being clouted on the head by a trumpet if I didn't mentally transpose the riffs correctly (mind you, the harmonies could sound very chinese at times if I forgot....). So, yes I can transpose, I learnt well, but why ? "C RULES", OK ? Didn't then, but does now. So where are the gigs, now that I'm ready ? ;-((
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 29th 11:39 AM Sorry, none of that had anything to do with Nathan's excellent solo, so the posting can be deleted, if anyone so wishes....
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 29th 1:57 PM Yes Alan...all very logical. The moral must be "stick to one tuning". This, surely, is why many of the greats stuck to tenor and soprano; they didn't bog themselves down with the problems of improvising and transposing the Vulgarian Nose Flute tuned to G# minor!
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 29th 3:01 PM 'snot the key that Roland Kirk played his nose flute in.....ard,arf..
Cool Runnin' Man User ID: 9725373	Jun 29th 11:14 PM Castaway and Bb/ I agree with the two of you about the obsession of playing in the key of C. I really believe that players that favor this key and C pitched instruments do so because it is easy to play with this combination. (The key and the instrument). But alas, in real life you must know how to play in ANY key no matter what your instrument pitch is. If you can't. You are probably an inferior player. You may be able to rip off a great solo in that key. But I can rip of the same quality solo no matter what key I play in or no matter what sax I am using. This is not bragging. It is just saying that I have been playing for years and have gotten it down because of constant practice and experience. I and most of my contemporaries have transcended the key of C crutch. If a musician is satisfied by taking the easy way out, then he or she will most likely never progress past that point. If they are satisfied with that. Then so be it. I have no problem with that. Although I would never hire them to gig with me. But if one of those types asked me to play a job with them.I would gladly take that gig. After all, just think how easy that gig would be. Like Dire Straits sings. "Money for Nothin'".
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 30th 4:13 AM I think you have to split the issues rho' - although I favour 'C' instruments, for all the reasons above, I'm also totally fluent in the key of C#/Db from playing alto with guitarists in E ! Although I do prefer 'thinking' in C#, rather than Db. So don't let's 'dumb-down' musicians just for playing C instruments...... In fact, since assessing Steve's Aquilasax alto, I now seem to enjoy playing (my old Martin Magna) Eb-Alto and C-Soprano combination, plus flute - poor old C-Mel is gathering cobwebs ! So I've come full citcle, as they say....
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Jun 30th 4:23 AM In case I didn't make it clear, I can also play perfectly well in all the other keys, not just C and C#... I've never met a sax player 'stuck in C' - although I've met a few who thought C.G and D were the only civilised keys.... I guess they were allegic to havinng to move away from the pearls onto tose nasty palm and pinkie keys ! Wimps...
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 30th 5:36 AM Alan...Almost as a throwaway line you have hit the nail on the head "...those nasty palm and pinkie keys". Take a look at the Real Book and you will see that the keys are invariably saxophone friendly....C, F, Bb and Eb. Until electric guitars hit the scene with their propensity for nasty sharp keys there was really no need for the saxophonist to delve into the unknown realms of the G# key. I have a lifelong pro friend, a superb, world class saxophonist. When he joined our blues band he insisted that everything played in E was changed to F, and everything usually in A reverted to Bb. In all the years that he had been playing, there had been no need for him to get out of his comfort zone. Ironically, he seemed just as fluid in F# or C# as, I know, Alan, are you.