NOTICE: Beginning July 10th, 2008, this message board service will no longer be active or available for use.

C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Wurlitzer repad and a new embouchure

Richard C User ID: 9962683	Mar 31st 9:58 AM The Wurlitzer is back from the repair shop and I can now play more then one octave. I am a long time oboe player and have been playing the C saxophone as though it were a huge oboe. The midrange notes sound great but octave transitions are very difficult and the upper octave sometimes sounds stuffy. I suspected that my oboe embouchure was the culprit so I consulted a recently purchased book “The Art of Saxophone Playing.” The author instructs that the top teeth rest on the mouthpiece. I followed his instructions and played a blues scale. Wow! My entire head resonates. I literally became part of the instrument. Is this normal? Some forum threads talk about teeth buzzing but this is definitely more acoustic. I also dug ruts into the top of my new mouthpiece. Is the skull supposed to be part of the instrument?
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Mar 31st 1:03 PM Richard - if you (quote) 'dug ruts' in the top of the mouthpiece then you're applying far too much pressure with the teeth - the top teeth should just rest on the mouthpiece - in fact you should be able to lift them off and have the top lip just in contact (same with the bottom teeth...). The teeth are just a steadying contact point, if needed, not an acoustic transducer....... Try a mouthpiece patch, it may help, but certainly loosen up a bit - in extreme cases a metal mouthpiece plus tooth cavities can be a disastrous combination, but thankfully that's relatively rare. I had that effect once after dental treatment, but I think the dentist had made my gums a bit nervous !
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Mar 31st 1:28 PM Hi RichardC. If you are digging ruts in the mouthpiece you are probably biting way too hard. The teeth do rest on the top, and as a result they vibrate along with the entire bone structure of your upper jaw and skull. Since you are not used to this, it is a suprise! This is normal. On low pitch instruments, like my bass saxophone, or the contra-bass clarinet it rattles my eyes so that the music is hard to read! Try the mouthpiece exercises on the following page: http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/mpc_pitch.html and http://www.geocities.com/harrir/saxophone/tone_production.html The pitch you are trying to hit is Ab5. Use an electronic tuner. By the way, the page on my website was reviewed, approved and authorized by Santy Runyon himself.
Richard C User ID: 9962683	Mar 31st 3:26 PM Thanks for the information. You long time sax players must think that this head resonance is beginer stuff but I was really supprised the first time. It was the same effect I get when clamping a tuning fork between my teeth. So, I have a new embouchure to develop. I'll watch the teeth pressure and "lighten up."
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Apr 1st 3:36 AM Richard, you have one over me as I've never played double-reed instruments. Do you bite the base of the oboe reed when playing ? Always seemed to me (from watching) that it was very much all 'in the lips'. But you have reminded me that vibration does happen, I've revived early memories of problems with vibrations in my nasal cavities, and real problems with resonance when playing with a head-cold. So you're not at all unusual - please let us know how you get on. Kind Regards, Alan.
Jim B User ID: 9725373	Apr 1st 10:46 AM Since I an oboe player and a sax player probably what Richard C is saying is something like this. When you play oboe you cushion the reed with your lips---no teeth on reed contact.What resonates on the oboe is air column mostly not the wood instrument. With the sax you use the bite on the mouthpiece only to hold the mouthpiece in position.What resonates is the air column and the thin metal of the instrument.The sensation about the head resonating is the feel of the jaw bone sending the sound to the ear internally.On oboe there is no jaw bone to ear connection due to the lip cushioning effect. With sax I find that what the instrument sounds like to me is different than what it REALLY sounds like. Playing to a tape player is a better way to see what the sound is really like.The bone to ear sound is not what the audience hears. With oboe what you hear is about what the audience hears. Problems with playing octaves in tune with each other can be a mouthpiece problem. Octave problems come about sometimes by putting the mouthpiece on too far on the cork or not far enough.There could be horn problems of course but you have to live with the horn instrument you have; mouthpieces you can try and reject. Note to Richard C. Once you get the hang of playing sax it is a piece of cake compared to playing oboe. With oboe, getting the reed to play sometimes is 50% hit or miss. With sax most anyone can get the reed to reliably vibrate.If you play with a small group of players the C melody is fine. Playing in a big band means you will have to usually transpose a Bb tenor part.
Richard C User ID: 9962683	Apr 3rd 10:24 AM I followed the links and read the articles on mouthpiece exercises. (Thank you WW2 for the information) I also read several articles on mouthpiece exercises suggested by the sax on the web forum. I am confused again. The Santy Runyon chart of mouthpiece frequencies indicates that the C melody mouthpiece should have a natural frequency of Ab5. A perfect oboe reed “crows” at a harmonic of C natural, so it makes sense that a saxophone mouthpiece and reed have an inherent “crow” frequency. My new Ralph Morgan C melody mouthpiece (a solstice present from my wife) seems to have a natural crow frequency of G, just like a Bb tenor mouthpiece. Does this mean that the C melody sax will not play correctly with this mouthpiece? A different article on mouthpiece exercises (Shooshie) suggests playing scales on only the mouthpiece. This school of thought leads me to believe that one adjusts the embouchure to achieve the correct tone and the mouthpiece natural frequency does not matter. This seems like conflicting approaches.
Jim B User ID: 0408214	Apr 3rd 11:01 AM I know others on this chatroom will tell you that tenor sax mouthpieces will play on the C melody, but you hit on one problem. The original old C melody mouthpiece was shorter than a modern tenor mouthpiece and internally the old 1920s mouthpiece had a round chamber. Old mouthpieces also had a very small tip opening by todays standards.Design standards have changed and intonation can suffer. Bottom line is any tenor mouthpiece you use on a C melody may get mixed results. You have to try the tenor mouthpiece and see how it performs---some work good and some don't. Usually octaves in tune are sometimes a problem. If the mouthpiece produces a top register that is flat and the bottom notes are sharp, you have to try a different mouthpiece. Some short stubby tenor mouthpieces work better. An alternative is to buy a newly made C melody mouthpiece which can be pricey. I play on a woodwind brasswind mouthpiece for C melody which runs about $75USA (I had to think twice since I only paid $300 for a playable C emlody). Don't invest in a new pricey Tenor sax mouthpiece for the C melody without trying it out. Borrow some tenor mouthpieces from your friends to try before you buy.The local music stores also usually have a drawer of old mouthpieces you can try and if you like pay $20each for. You cannot compare the "Crowing" pitch for the oboe reed against the sax crow. With oboe the reed is full in the instrument and the pitch of the cane has to be more exact. With the sax you can adjust the mouthpiece to some extent before the top and bottom notes start to flat at the top, sharpen on the bottom.Even if the mouthpiece plays perfectly you still have to have a sense of centering the pitch since factors on the instrument itself can make certain notes somewhat off pitch.
cmelodysaxuk User ID: 8200143	Apr 3rd 4:50 PM Richard - I'm one of those, as Jim says, that will tell you that (quote)" will tell you that tenor sax mouthpieces will play on the C melody". They will. We use them. Period. Full stop. Luckily most of the modern, brighter, tenor sax mouthpieces have smaller chambers that work well on C-mels. The only trade-off is that they are frequently on the cork a lot further than you would normally have a mouthpiece - hence the talk of short-shank mouthpieces, especially on the Conn straight-neck C-mel where the microtuner makes things difficult. It is, however, unfortunate that some tenor saxmouthpieces are more in tume that others, not just on specific manufacturers C-Mels, but even from one C-mel to the next. Cybersax recommend either Beechler or Runyon C-melody mouthpieces, and also vintage Selmer 'Short-Shank' tenor mouthpieces for C-mels - the short-shank thing is again because they seem to specialise in Conn C-Mels, which have restricted shanks. The Morgan you have is, I'm told, the Rolls-Royce of C-mel mouthpieces, nice to know it has 'tenor sax' leanings..... It all depends on what sound you want to produce. Most C-mel mouthpieces tend towards dark, almost traditional sounds, and the available range isn't great. You may well find the Morgan gives you all you need. C-Mel mouthpieces are the great quest, if you're easily satisfied then it will be easy, if not, then beg/borrow as many different mouthpieces as you can (alto and tenor) and give them all a try. I would however, add this important caveat. All these mouthpiece tests/trials are for experienced players with good saxophone embouchures. If you have a Morgan C-Mel mouthpiece, then that is eminently suitable for developing an embouchure, it's about as good as C-Mel mouthpieces get. So, use it whilst you develop your embouchure, it will serve you well. Time enough to experiment months (if not years) down the line, not now. Good Luck.
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Apr 7th 2:57 PM Richard; The purpose of the mouthpiece exercises is to set your embouchure. If the pitch is too high, your embouchure is too tight. If the pitch is too low, the embouchure is too loose. However, modern C-Melody mouthpieces with Bb-Tenor Reeds may indeed "crow" at G. Remember, the pitches that Santy Runyon used were set in the 1920s or so. If you can consistently get the G, then your embouchure is about right. Put the mouthpiece on the sax and see if it plays decently. congratulations, you have started down a long and winding road!
Richard C User ID: 9962683	Apr 20th 8:12 AM Gentlemen: Thank you for the support. There is a new bite pad on the mouthpiece and the mouthpiece exercises seem to help. Here are some novice observations: 1) I have a constant desire to play the saxophone. I never felt this with the oboe. It is driving me to post this thread at work instead of doing work. This seems very illogical. My wife insists that the saxophone is haunted. 2) My son’s large lizard seems to enjoy the sound made by the saxophone. He resides in an aquarium on a table in the practice room. When I play, especially the low register, he comes out of hiding, stands quite still and hold his head as high as possible. His actions seem odd. This is a very stupid lizard. You can see daylight from the other side when looking into one ear. I find it difficult to believe that he really enjoys music. Perhaps it is a pleasant vibration. 3)I discovered that the words "reed" and "aaaaaargh" still belong in the same sentence. After a few uses, some reeds warp and don’t lie flat on the mouthpiece table. I use a LaVoz plastic reed holder. I wonder if it is causing the warp when a reed is shoved in to dry? At least saxophone reeds are less expensive then oboe reeds.
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Apr 20th 2:27 PM Have you tried synthetic reeds? Many players here like them.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Apr 20th 3:32 PM Or if you still prefer cane, Rico Plasticover is a good option. Doublers use them because they don't dry/warp just when you don't need it.....
Richard C User ID: 9962683	Apr 25th 9:54 AM My embrasure is getting stronger and the tone is improving. Scales seem to flow with less effort. In a few short months, I sound better on the sax then I did on the oboe after 20 years. Last Sunday I sat down for my daily practice and nothing would come out of the saxophone. I mean really nothing but squeaks and grunts. It was horrible sounding. I suspected my embrasure or reed placement but the mouthpiece sounded good alone. I then suspected the saxophone had an air leak or a broken spring. Inspection revealed nothing. I tried the mouthpiece on only the gooseneck and it squeaked and honked terribly but I detected no air leaks. I tried every reed in the house. Nothing I tried would produce a note. It was incredibly frustrating and embarrassing. Yesterday I tried again and everything was fine. Beautiful tone, all notes playing, as if nothing had ever been wrong. I am beginning to agree with my wife; the saxophone is haunted. I have named it Audrey. I think Audrey does not like Sunday practice. On a different topic: I decided to take your advice and try a synthetic reed. The local music store had only one. It was a Fibracell medium soft. I was pleasantly surprised. It sounded almost as good as a new Vandoran. My experience with plastic oboe reeds was not favorable but I may become a convert for synthetic saxophone reeds. I will try a Rico Plasticover next, since Alan recommends them. Yet another different topic: I put a bass clarinet reed on my old C Melody mouthpiece to check the natural frequency. It seems to “crow” at a perfect G, just like a tenor mouthpiece. I was expecting an Ab. I tried to lip it up to Ab but my imperfect embrasure still wanted to produce a G. I find this interesting.
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Apr 25th 12:45 PM It is possible that the Ab in the mouthpiece pitch chart is wrong. If the natural frequency seem to be G, it is very close. Okay all, how about trying your mouthpieces with a neutral embouchure and checking the natural frequency. Please note if this is an original C-Melody or Modern and the particular reed used (Bb-Tenor, C-Melody, Bass Clarinet, 2 x 4, or whatever). Hopefully we can come up with a consensus. Or, if anyone has a theromin, we can do it Santy Runyon's way!
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Apr 25th 2:16 PM http://www.thereminworld.com/default.asp
Richard C User ID: 9962683	Apr 25th 2:38 PM Theromin is a new term to me. Alan: Thanks for the link. I am intrigued by the Santy Runyon article that used a Theromin to play a saxophone. Being an electrical engineer, I immediately started thinking about an audio tone generator with a small speaker to fit into a chopped mouthpiece. It would be simple to dial the appropriate frequency for a test. Let me shop around among our testing department for something. I am not too interested in chopping one of my mouthpieces however.
bill User ID: 0456964	Feb 4th 11:35 AM Im curious about this Santy Runyon that you all have been making referance to. Im a sax player that is getting back into the horn after several years of dormancy. Im not sure Im playing with the right mouthpiece or if my (mouth) is the fault. Seems he has a method of determining,where can I get more info?
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Feb 7th 8:21 PM Take a look on the Sax on the Web site, Paul Coats beginner Techniques. You can find it at: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1389/index.html and http://www.saxontheweb.net/Learning/Beginner_Corner3.html And http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/mpc_pitch.html Good information on all places. Sadly, Santy Runion pass away a couple of years ago, but his company is still running strong at www.runyonproducts.com