C Melody Saxophone Forum

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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / J.W. York & Sons C Melody

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

daPuffin
User ID: 8284183 Jun 4th 1:39 PM
A few years ago I purchased at auction a J.W. York & Sons C Melody Sax. Notations under the thumbhook are: "60881, Low Pitch, Licence Pat. Dec. 8, 1914." On the bell, surrounded by a floral bouquet, it says "J.W. York & Sons. Grand Rapids, MI.

My husband plays tenor, but I bought this one for me. I am not a sax player (former flute player), but a wannabe. <g> What would be a good type of mouthpiece to use on this C Melody, and what would be a good reed for a beginner? The current mouthpiece has no markings, but the mouthpiece cover says "Humes" and on the ligature is the letter "C"

Thanks in advance for any advice!

daPuffin
in Seattle, WA

daPuffin
User ID: 8284183 Jun 4th 1:40 PM
Oops. Been doing a lot of correspondence to Canada lately. The text under the thumbhook says "License" not "Licence"

daPuffin

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Jun 4th 9:48 PM
daPuffin...Most all C melody's have that date on them. It is the date for the general patent for a C melody sax of any make. It's impossible to recommend a reed for you because I have no wauy of knowing the mouthpiece opening rating. The Humes mouthpiece that you own is for a C melody sax. So try a number 2 reed and work your way up until you get a sound that you like. But if your horn is not sealed properly. (No leaks) It really doesn't matter what you do. Nothing will sound right anyway. The C melody is not a good choice to learn to play saxophone on. York's do not have real good intonation to begin with. So you may think you are not progressing. But that may be because of the horn. You shoul learn to play on your husband's tenor if you can. I am assuming his horn is a good horn with good intonation. But then again. Me not being there makes all of my opinions and advice pure speculation. Giving advice over the internet on something as complex as telling someone how to play a C melody saxophone is hit and miss at best. The guy who is an expert on this would be Alan Tucker. He is a wealth of information and is always willing to give good advice based on years of experience dealing with saxophones (playing and rebuilding). Especially C melody's. I'm sure he will pick up on this thread, and jump right in to help you!

daPuffin
User ID: 1759784 Jun 4th 11:00 PM
Thanks much! We picked up some 2 and 2.5 VanDoren alto sax reeds today. What I had on there was a really hard reed and my husband also suggested I go to a softer reed.

Husband's tenor is an old (1940s?) Conn 16M in excellent condition and it sounds amazing. He's had it for 35 years.

And yes, he'll let me play the tenor if I want to. (Of course, I'm really hoping to find an affordable soprano sax, but that's another story.) He and a working musician friend of ours have gotten some surprisingly good sound out of the York, though. LOL! He says to work through the intonation issues of the York, I should do scales with the Strobocon tuner going. I dunno. Seems like too much work at this point. I just want to fool with the sax. My primary instrument for many years was flute - hence my attraction to another C instrument. =) If I really get to like playing it, maybe I'll upgrade someday.

Husband is also going to adjust the action in a couple places. He says it could use a new set of pads, but really isn't leaking. When we buy a new set of pads (he knows how to put them on the horn), are there sets for C Melody or do we have to buy for an alto or something?

Thanks again. I do undestand that giving this kind of advice of the Net is asking a lot. Any guidance, however, is always good.

Cheers!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Jun 5th 9:29 AM
daPuffin...Yes, there are pads made specifically for C melody saxophones. Do a Google search or leaf through this forum. There are some specific prices and names of pad dealers for C melody's spread throughout the threads on this forum.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 5th 11:45 AM
daPuffin.
Although some music accessory suppliers will provide a set of pads for a specific instrument, this is knowledge gained by them as to the correct sizes...usually for the better known brands only.
A pad of any diameter does not know, or care, if it is fitted to a baritone or a soprano. A good music accessory shop can supply pads between the diameters of 6mm up to 71mm in steps of 0.5mm. It is up to the repairer to measure the cup diameters and order the pads accordingly.
The caveat being that at least two different thickness of pads are used, so be sure to measure the thickness of the existing pads to establish the required thickness. Pads either too thick or too thin will, obviously, not seal when the keys are depressed.
I do however agree with a previous poster in recommending that you do not start with an old C Mel. Your understandable preference for a sax in C can be resolved with the "just to be announced" Aquilasax (Google for details) C melody with modern keywork with no intonation problems...your timing is perfect!

alan (uk)
User ID: 1341734 Jun 5th 12:26 PM
daPuffin - hello - MusicMedic.com (e.g.) does 'packaged' pad sets for some C-mels, but York isn't one of the commonest, and often pad sizes change ove a models lifetime - so it may be better just to buy the ones you need.

http://musicmedic.com/catalog/products.html

I have a chart of vintage sax pad sizes on my website, link below - York is the middle column, ghtand C-mel is the middle of that column. You can enlarge it in a browser if you think your eyesight is going.... Pads are now in 'mm' sizes, those are the old standard 1/32" sizes, so conversion is required, but a good pad reseller can easily do that. Might just be better to measure any cups, because thay do vary.

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/pad-sizes.htm

You might also look at my Q&A page, or have general root around the website - cmelodysax.co.uk.

I note you mention soprano - they're a bit costly, but had you thought of C-Soprano ? Superb double for a flute player. Can sound like a sax or an oboe, and all the sounds in-between.....

If you want a reasonably priced modern version of that (probably horrible tasting) C-mel mouthpiece, Aquilasax.com do a very good ebonite one, with a usefully wider tip opening than the old ones.

daPuffin
User ID: 0401124 Jun 5th 1:01 PM
Thanks to all of you for the good info.

True! regarding the old mouthpiece tasting horrible. Seems like that is something that one could do something about. LOL! I thought it was my imagination!

I'd LOVE a C Soprano and am very interested in the new Aquilasax. There's that awful finances thing that gets in the way of the good stuff. I assume that the Chinese saxes I'm seeing on Ebay for just a few hundred are crap and would frustrate me more than help me learn. Am I right?

The comment that C-Soprano sax can sound like sax or oboe intrigues me. Oboe? Really? I am having a hard time comprehending that.

Well, I just had a "lesson" on the tenor from my husband. (He was a music major and the tenor is his main instrument, but like me, he knows very little about the C-Melody.) I could get a few decent sounds from it, but the thing is awfully heavy for me. That said, I imagine that learning the embouchure on a C-Soprano will take a little more effort than the C-Melody or Tenor. I'd like to fine one and try it.

One more question. You mention that the Aquilasax ebonite mpc has a "usefully" wider tip than the old mouthpieces. Why is a wider tip useful?

I appreciate your patience with such a rank beginner here.

alan (uk)
User ID: 1341734 Jun 5th 2:16 PM
daPuffin - I was posting at the same time as Capn Bb, and I agree with him that (although you've played flute) C-Mel isn't the ideal starter sax. It can be a bit clunky and there are a few tuning considerations. A more modern alto or soprano could be more useful - the soprano especially so if you've ever dabbled in clarinet.

"..the Chinese saxes you're seeing on Ebay for just a few hundred.." aren't all necessarily crap, sometimes clearances of reasonable value instruments, but unfortunately you can't tell that until you've bought one and your husband has tried it. If the seller offers returns, then it's a possibility, but it is a bit of a lucky dip.

About the 'oboe' thing - all soprano's can sound oboe'ish and quite nasal (sometimes to the annoyance of the player, who'd like really it to sound like a saxophone...) - might just be an idea to start on a cheap Bb soprano, and maybe look for a 'C' later. I'm sure you'd find your husband would borrow it, matybe even pay for it, it's an ideal double for a tenor player (both in Bb) - his guidance would be very useful - and you could play from the same music.

The 'wider tip' on the modern C mouthpiece means you can get a better range of dynamics than with the old 'C' one - they are a little 'muted', designed as they mostly were for relatively quiet 'parlour' playing, apart from the curious taste - like an old pipe stem (it's the sulphur in the ebonite....).

This could turn into a marathon topic, but I have to say that your questions are far more enjoyable and challenging than the average " I've got an old York C-Mel, how much is it worth..?" question. Keep going !

daPuffin
User ID: 0401124 Jun 5th 4:01 PM
Lots more food for thought and great info! Thanks again.

Question. Is (or was) the Martin manufacturer of saxes the same as the Martin stringed instruments?

(I bought a Martin backpacker guitar at the same auction that I bought my C-Melody, in fact. Along with about 5 other instruments.) As far as the question, "how much is it worth," I know the answer is "not a whole lot." I think we paid under $150 for it at the time, which may have been too much. But I wanted the thing. Especially after the bids on the C Soprano I had my eye on went outrageously out of range for me.

I'll keep my eye out for eBay auctions for a less expensive Bb soprano for now. Any guesses as to roughly what (in USD$)I might have to spend to get something playable? Not concert level - just a good beginner level horn. Hmmm... I have a clarinet or two that maybe I could auction out for sax funds.

Yeah, husband will probably borrow any instrument I purchase. We tend to pass instruments around here.

Cheers!

daPuffin
(a/k/a Linda in Seattle, WA USA)

ukebert
User ID: 9906923 Jun 5th 4:31 PM
Well the backpackers were produced fairly recently, unlike the 'old' martins, completely different. They made some stunning ukuleles. I do not however believe they are the same brand as the sax people.

daPuffin
User ID: 0401124 Jun 5th 4:56 PM
Yeah, prolly a different Martin company than CF Martin.

I had access to a vintage Martin dreadnoughtguitar for many years. What a sweet guitar, though I like the old Gibsons a whole lot, too. The backpacker is just for kicks and just to have a Martin >grin< The action on it is way too high for my taste, too. We have other guitars for playing. I've heard of the Martin ukes but never fooled with one. I guess with a name like ukebert, you know a bit about ukes. =) I did once upon a time mess a bit on a Martin mandolin, but I'm not a mandolin player, so didn't have much opinion one way or another.

Sorry about the thread drift.
Thanks for answering my question. =)

bruce bailey
User ID: 9670323 Jun 6th 12:10 AM
If you are serious about doing repair, you may want to buy an electronic caliper. These sell for under $100US for a good one from Japan or you can find some for as low as $25 at Pep Boys. These aid in getting an exact pad cup inner measure for ordering a pad set. It never hurts to order with a list.
As far as Martin Guitars, they are made in Nazereth PA and have made Ukes for years. Tiny Tim, the stange dude that sang Tiptoe through the Tulips used one. No relation to the sax company.

Castaway.
User ID: 9182423 Jun 6th 11:54 AM
Yesterday morning I saw a post on this thread by Captain Muggles. It was a little dig at Bb. It was no big thing at all as far as I was concerned. But I looked a short while later and it was gone. This random deleting of posts that don't suit the fancy of A CERTAIN Spamkiller had better stop NOW. Yoy have no right whatsoever to delete anybody's post unless it is SPAM or outrageously insulting. Muggles's post was neither. If Wade deleted it, then ignore this protest. If it wasn't him then what right does anyone else have for doing it. The answer is No right whatsoever.

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Jun 6th 12:45 PM
Not my doing. If this happens again I will have to revoke spam killing privledges!

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jun 6th 1:06 PM
Castaway.
A dig at me? Surely you jest...Jungle Juggles being such a sensitive, inoffensive soul.

alan (uk)
User ID: 1341734 Jun 6th 1:25 PM
Look, I don't want to bog down yet another topic with 'bickering', but as both a spam killer and good friend of Capn Bb, I know Capn Bb is perfectly capable of fighting his own battles - so I wouldn't delete any disrespectful remarks by anyone.

I've been responding very sensibly to daPuffin's questions (as has Capn Bb !), but what must new contributors think of us ?

alan (uk)
User ID: 1341734 Jun 6th 1:29 PM
In case anyone is interested, there is a "Low cost pain medication!" spam that's just arrived, someone else can delete it !

:-))

Sam ie
User ID: 0331974 Jun 6th 1:31 PM
I just got it a few seconds ago, I didn't read your post though

Castaway
User ID: 9182423 Jun 6th 5:38 PM
Fellows: Let's all be friends. No more underhanded actions or reactions. Play by the rules and don't make up or circumvent them. A person that deletes posts is abusing his priveleges. You can use your intellect to react to a post that you don't agree with. Erasing it is the sneaky, underhanded way to do it. It shows lack of character. I like this forum. Sometimes I don't agree with everything posted. But I would rather rebutt or ignore a controversial post rather than see it erased. Only a person with an imagined sense of superiority would do that. Who are you or I to judge what is posted here as long as it isn't totally outrageous. And if it is, let it stand for everyone to see. We can just ignore it. Well that's how I feel about it anyway.

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

daPuffin User ID: 8284183	Jun 4th 1:39 PM A few years ago I purchased at auction a J.W. York & Sons C Melody Sax. Notations under the thumbhook are: "60881, Low Pitch, Licence Pat. Dec. 8, 1914." On the bell, surrounded by a floral bouquet, it says "J.W. York & Sons. Grand Rapids, MI. My husband plays tenor, but I bought this one for me. I am not a sax player (former flute player), but a wannabe. <g> What would be a good type of mouthpiece to use on this C Melody, and what would be a good reed for a beginner? The current mouthpiece has no markings, but the mouthpiece cover says "Humes" and on the ligature is the letter "C" Thanks in advance for any advice! daPuffin in Seattle, WA
daPuffin User ID: 8284183	Jun 4th 1:40 PM Oops. Been doing a lot of correspondence to Canada lately. The text under the thumbhook says "License" not "Licence" daPuffin
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Jun 4th 9:48 PM daPuffin...Most all C melody's have that date on them. It is the date for the general patent for a C melody sax of any make. It's impossible to recommend a reed for you because I have no wauy of knowing the mouthpiece opening rating. The Humes mouthpiece that you own is for a C melody sax. So try a number 2 reed and work your way up until you get a sound that you like. But if your horn is not sealed properly. (No leaks) It really doesn't matter what you do. Nothing will sound right anyway. The C melody is not a good choice to learn to play saxophone on. York's do not have real good intonation to begin with. So you may think you are not progressing. But that may be because of the horn. You shoul learn to play on your husband's tenor if you can. I am assuming his horn is a good horn with good intonation. But then again. Me not being there makes all of my opinions and advice pure speculation. Giving advice over the internet on something as complex as telling someone how to play a C melody saxophone is hit and miss at best. The guy who is an expert on this would be Alan Tucker. He is a wealth of information and is always willing to give good advice based on years of experience dealing with saxophones (playing and rebuilding). Especially C melody's. I'm sure he will pick up on this thread, and jump right in to help you!
daPuffin User ID: 1759784	Jun 4th 11:00 PM Thanks much! We picked up some 2 and 2.5 VanDoren alto sax reeds today. What I had on there was a really hard reed and my husband also suggested I go to a softer reed. Husband's tenor is an old (1940s?) Conn 16M in excellent condition and it sounds amazing. He's had it for 35 years. And yes, he'll let me play the tenor if I want to. (Of course, I'm really hoping to find an affordable soprano sax, but that's another story.) He and a working musician friend of ours have gotten some surprisingly good sound out of the York, though. LOL! He says to work through the intonation issues of the York, I should do scales with the Strobocon tuner going. I dunno. Seems like too much work at this point. I just want to fool with the sax. My primary instrument for many years was flute - hence my attraction to another C instrument. =) If I really get to like playing it, maybe I'll upgrade someday. Husband is also going to adjust the action in a couple places. He says it could use a new set of pads, but really isn't leaking. When we buy a new set of pads (he knows how to put them on the horn), are there sets for C Melody or do we have to buy for an alto or something? Thanks again. I do undestand that giving this kind of advice of the Net is asking a lot. Any guidance, however, is always good. Cheers!
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Jun 5th 9:29 AM daPuffin...Yes, there are pads made specifically for C melody saxophones. Do a Google search or leaf through this forum. There are some specific prices and names of pad dealers for C melody's spread throughout the threads on this forum.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 5th 11:45 AM daPuffin. Although some music accessory suppliers will provide a set of pads for a specific instrument, this is knowledge gained by them as to the correct sizes...usually for the better known brands only. A pad of any diameter does not know, or care, if it is fitted to a baritone or a soprano. A good music accessory shop can supply pads between the diameters of 6mm up to 71mm in steps of 0.5mm. It is up to the repairer to measure the cup diameters and order the pads accordingly. The caveat being that at least two different thickness of pads are used, so be sure to measure the thickness of the existing pads to establish the required thickness. Pads either too thick or too thin will, obviously, not seal when the keys are depressed. I do however agree with a previous poster in recommending that you do not start with an old C Mel. Your understandable preference for a sax in C can be resolved with the "just to be announced" Aquilasax (Google for details) C melody with modern keywork with no intonation problems...your timing is perfect!
alan (uk) User ID: 1341734	Jun 5th 12:26 PM daPuffin - hello - MusicMedic.com (e.g.) does 'packaged' pad sets for some C-mels, but York isn't one of the commonest, and often pad sizes change ove a models lifetime - so it may be better just to buy the ones you need. http://musicmedic.com/catalog/products.html I have a chart of vintage sax pad sizes on my website, link below - York is the middle column, ghtand C-mel is the middle of that column. You can enlarge it in a browser if you think your eyesight is going.... Pads are now in 'mm' sizes, those are the old standard 1/32" sizes, so conversion is required, but a good pad reseller can easily do that. Might just be better to measure any cups, because thay do vary. http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/pad-sizes.htm You might also look at my Q&A page, or have general root around the website - cmelodysax.co.uk. I note you mention soprano - they're a bit costly, but had you thought of C-Soprano ? Superb double for a flute player. Can sound like a sax or an oboe, and all the sounds in-between..... If you want a reasonably priced modern version of that (probably horrible tasting) C-mel mouthpiece, Aquilasax.com do a very good ebonite one, with a usefully wider tip opening than the old ones.
daPuffin User ID: 0401124	Jun 5th 1:01 PM Thanks to all of you for the good info. True! regarding the old mouthpiece tasting horrible. Seems like that is something that one could do something about. LOL! I thought it was my imagination! I'd LOVE a C Soprano and am very interested in the new Aquilasax. There's that awful finances thing that gets in the way of the good stuff. I assume that the Chinese saxes I'm seeing on Ebay for just a few hundred are crap and would frustrate me more than help me learn. Am I right? The comment that C-Soprano sax can sound like sax or oboe intrigues me. Oboe? Really? I am having a hard time comprehending that. Well, I just had a "lesson" on the tenor from my husband. (He was a music major and the tenor is his main instrument, but like me, he knows very little about the C-Melody.) I could get a few decent sounds from it, but the thing is awfully heavy for me. That said, I imagine that learning the embouchure on a C-Soprano will take a little more effort than the C-Melody or Tenor. I'd like to fine one and try it. One more question. You mention that the Aquilasax ebonite mpc has a "usefully" wider tip than the old mouthpieces. Why is a wider tip useful? I appreciate your patience with such a rank beginner here.
alan (uk) User ID: 1341734	Jun 5th 2:16 PM daPuffin - I was posting at the same time as Capn Bb, and I agree with him that (although you've played flute) C-Mel isn't the ideal starter sax. It can be a bit clunky and there are a few tuning considerations. A more modern alto or soprano could be more useful - the soprano especially so if you've ever dabbled in clarinet. "..the Chinese saxes you're seeing on Ebay for just a few hundred.." aren't all necessarily crap, sometimes clearances of reasonable value instruments, but unfortunately you can't tell that until you've bought one and your husband has tried it. If the seller offers returns, then it's a possibility, but it is a bit of a lucky dip. About the 'oboe' thing - all soprano's can sound oboe'ish and quite nasal (sometimes to the annoyance of the player, who'd like really it to sound like a saxophone...) - might just be an idea to start on a cheap Bb soprano, and maybe look for a 'C' later. I'm sure you'd find your husband would borrow it, matybe even pay for it, it's an ideal double for a tenor player (both in Bb) - his guidance would be very useful - and you could play from the same music. The 'wider tip' on the modern C mouthpiece means you can get a better range of dynamics than with the old 'C' one - they are a little 'muted', designed as they mostly were for relatively quiet 'parlour' playing, apart from the curious taste - like an old pipe stem (it's the sulphur in the ebonite....). This could turn into a marathon topic, but I have to say that your questions are far more enjoyable and challenging than the average " I've got an old York C-Mel, how much is it worth..?" question. Keep going !
daPuffin User ID: 0401124	Jun 5th 4:01 PM Lots more food for thought and great info! Thanks again. Question. Is (or was) the Martin manufacturer of saxes the same as the Martin stringed instruments? (I bought a Martin backpacker guitar at the same auction that I bought my C-Melody, in fact. Along with about 5 other instruments.) As far as the question, "how much is it worth," I know the answer is "not a whole lot." I think we paid under $150 for it at the time, which may have been too much. But I wanted the thing. Especially after the bids on the C Soprano I had my eye on went outrageously out of range for me. I'll keep my eye out for eBay auctions for a less expensive Bb soprano for now. Any guesses as to roughly what (in USD$)I might have to spend to get something playable? Not concert level - just a good beginner level horn. Hmmm... I have a clarinet or two that maybe I could auction out for sax funds. Yeah, husband will probably borrow any instrument I purchase. We tend to pass instruments around here. Cheers! daPuffin (a/k/a Linda in Seattle, WA USA)
ukebert User ID: 9906923	Jun 5th 4:31 PM Well the backpackers were produced fairly recently, unlike the 'old' martins, completely different. They made some stunning ukuleles. I do not however believe they are the same brand as the sax people.
daPuffin User ID: 0401124	Jun 5th 4:56 PM Yeah, prolly a different Martin company than CF Martin. I had access to a vintage Martin dreadnoughtguitar for many years. What a sweet guitar, though I like the old Gibsons a whole lot, too. The backpacker is just for kicks and just to have a Martin >grin< The action on it is way too high for my taste, too. We have other guitars for playing. I've heard of the Martin ukes but never fooled with one. I guess with a name like ukebert, you know a bit about ukes. =) I did once upon a time mess a bit on a Martin mandolin, but I'm not a mandolin player, so didn't have much opinion one way or another. Sorry about the thread drift. Thanks for answering my question. =)
bruce bailey User ID: 9670323	Jun 6th 12:10 AM If you are serious about doing repair, you may want to buy an electronic caliper. These sell for under $100US for a good one from Japan or you can find some for as low as $25 at Pep Boys. These aid in getting an exact pad cup inner measure for ordering a pad set. It never hurts to order with a list. As far as Martin Guitars, they are made in Nazereth PA and have made Ukes for years. Tiny Tim, the stange dude that sang Tiptoe through the Tulips used one. No relation to the sax company.
Castaway. User ID: 9182423	Jun 6th 11:54 AM Yesterday morning I saw a post on this thread by Captain Muggles. It was a little dig at Bb. It was no big thing at all as far as I was concerned. But I looked a short while later and it was gone. This random deleting of posts that don't suit the fancy of A CERTAIN Spamkiller had better stop NOW. Yoy have no right whatsoever to delete anybody's post unless it is SPAM or outrageously insulting. Muggles's post was neither. If Wade deleted it, then ignore this protest. If it wasn't him then what right does anyone else have for doing it. The answer is No right whatsoever.
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Jun 6th 12:45 PM Not my doing. If this happens again I will have to revoke spam killing privledges!
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jun 6th 1:06 PM Castaway. A dig at me? Surely you jest...Jungle Juggles being such a sensitive, inoffensive soul.
alan (uk) User ID: 1341734	Jun 6th 1:25 PM Look, I don't want to bog down yet another topic with 'bickering', but as both a spam killer and good friend of Capn Bb, I know Capn Bb is perfectly capable of fighting his own battles - so I wouldn't delete any disrespectful remarks by anyone. I've been responding very sensibly to daPuffin's questions (as has Capn Bb !), but what must new contributors think of us ?
alan (uk) User ID: 1341734	Jun 6th 1:29 PM In case anyone is interested, there is a "Low cost pain medication!" spam that's just arrived, someone else can delete it ! :-))
Sam ie User ID: 0331974	Jun 6th 1:31 PM I just got it a few seconds ago, I didn't read your post though
Castaway User ID: 9182423	Jun 6th 5:38 PM Fellows: Let's all be friends. No more underhanded actions or reactions. Play by the rules and don't make up or circumvent them. A person that deletes posts is abusing his priveleges. You can use your intellect to react to a post that you don't agree with. Erasing it is the sneaky, underhanded way to do it. It shows lack of character. I like this forum. Sometimes I don't agree with everything posted. But I would rather rebutt or ignore a controversial post rather than see it erased. Only a person with an imagined sense of superiority would do that. Who are you or I to judge what is posted here as long as it isn't totally outrageous. And if it is, let it stand for everyone to see. We can just ignore it. Well that's how I feel about it anyway.