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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Buffet-Crampon

Next 20 Messages

Eric
User ID: 2170744 Sep 1st 8:22 AM
Hello- I have a Buffet Crampon low pitch C Mel (Carl Fisher engraving on the front)numbered 24191. I can't find the serial number lists any more, but one in the past indicated it was from around 1919. Should I attempt repadding this myself? I've never done it before, but I've taken most of this apart and know that the majority of the rods and screws work freely. Here in the Albany NY area a repadding is going to be in at least the $500 range, among the few repairers who'd touch an old C mel.

Eric
User ID: 2170744 Sep 1st 8:56 AM
I SHOULD ADD...If I take the plunge and order a pad set from Musicmedic, anyone know what standard size (Buescher, Conn, Etc) would be the closest?

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 1st 11:32 AM
Eric - the list I have says 1919/20. Whatever pad set you bought would leave you needing to order some separate replacements, so if it's apart already you may as well measure up and buy the correct individual sizes for the cups you have.

Pads, adhesive, cork etc. will probably be below $100, so what do you have to lose ? Do you have to replace all of them at once - sometimes it's less daunting to replace just enough to get it playing, then the rest 'as you go'.

If it's something you're doing 'for fun', that way you're not faced with seating a whole saxophone full of pads in one go. I've done it both ways, and sometimes regretted not listening to the old adage "if it ain't broke - don't fix it..." It's nice to do a complete repad, but can sometimes seem like an uphill struggle, moreso if you're a perfectionist.

Eric
User ID: 2170744 Sep 1st 2:11 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. The horn has what seems to be it's original set of white reflectorless pads, insect eaten and torn. The only real bit of damage is that the lowest key guard has broken off, but I still have it. Presently it isn't apart. I think I'll order a Conn C mel set- what ever doesn't fit I can put aside for my Wolverine/Conn.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 1st 3:12 PM
From a different viewpoint...to me, it does not make much sense to remove, say, the bottom stack only to replace one of the pads...assuming that they are all relatively tatty. As you have gone to the trouble of taking the whole horn apart replace all the pads.
I do agree with Alan that the cups should be measured individually and the pads ordered accordingly.
The reason that repairmen charge so much for re-padding an old horn is the time it may take to take apart mechanisms which have been untouched for more than half a century and have, in many cases, seized.

Jim B
User ID: 0979534 Sep 1st 4:33 PM
You can also call Ferree's Tools Inc which sells pad sets. Their number is 1-800-253-2261
Email to ferreestools.aol.com. Web site is www.ferreestool.com
They have pad sets for all saxs including c melody. y 2005 price list shows pad sets to be about as follows:
You supply mm or inches:
B40MC(C melody) set plain pad set=$25usa
B42MC tan kid=$29.75usa
B43 thin with flat metal resonator=$31usa
B44MC thin with regular resonator=$31usa
B46MC selmer style with domed resonator=$36.25usa

And the list goes on for conn resopads, buescher pads etc---about a dozen types of pads. I would recommend taking the old set off and sending them to ferree's to match the sizes---worked for me

bruce bailey
User ID: 9690803 Sep 2nd 12:15 AM
First step is to buy an electronic caliper (Pep Boys has them) and after the pads are removed, measure each pad cup to insure the correct set size. Too small is better than too large. oversize pads will never seat flat. Also when in doubt, get thinner pads. For a first timer Iand even for me after 44 years) a hot glue gun is easier to use for adhering the pads as shellac can be really messy if you have not done it before. Order some various cork thickness to do the kickers and use contact cement in a tube (Big Lots) for the corks. Make a leak light. Go to church and pray. Buy the wife something to keep her busy for 2 weeks. Get a pair of really thick reading glasses to see the details, very important. Get a block of wood and drill a line of holes to insert the rods as you remove them so they will go back in the same order.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 2nd 4:29 AM
See what I mean Eric - daunting isn't it....?

All I was trying to say, is that if you want to enjoy the sax - and see what it plays/sounds like with minimal effort (and there's nothing worse than completely overhauling a sax with loving care, and finding it was a bad idea, for whatever reason...), then you don't have to completely - initially - renovate it. If the pads are brown (instead of original white), then they won't necessarily be 80 years old...

Beeflat did a good job on a King C-Mel by just replacing a couple of 20's 'pillow' pads, as the rest were in very playable condition, but he's probably forgotten that. :-))

Bruce - two weeks to completion, fully regulated, if Eric has never done one before ? You don't need to do something like this "with the clock ticking", could take most of the winter...

Eric, I'd really advise against getting a Conn set for the E&S, you'll have to buy more individual ones anyway - several good ideas about pads above.

And you can download a free (Acrobat file) Repair Manual from my website, plus loads of info on the web. Good Luck !

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 2nd 5:09 AM
Eric.
Everything that you read here is true. In describing a process it often sounds far more difficult than it is...and we have described, in fairness, the worst case scenario from our individual experiences. Backgammon is a very simple game but the rules make it seem very complex...it is a matter of taking your time and exercising great care.
I agree with other posters in that buying pads individually, as distinct from a set, is preferable; and err on the small side.
Yes Alan, I did indeed replace just two pillow pads (which you very kindly provided) but the others were perfect...and I loved the sound. Had new pillow pads been available then I would have had no compunction in renewing them all.
If you own a digital camera then photograph the mechanism in all it's detail...what seems obvious when you dismantle the horn is less so on reassembly. It is frustrating to be forced to take the horn apart again because some part of the mechanism should have been under, rather than over, another part. This does not apply to Alan. He can simply compare with anything up to five identical horns in his possession. :-))

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Sep 3rd 7:41 AM
Eric just get a pad set and do it. Don't think about how difficult it is. Since you have already taking the instrument apart, advice to play it as is with the pads as is ----probably not an option now.It may take a month to work all the leaks out when the pads are installed but you can do it; do it slowly.
Basic equipment needed are glue sticks, pad set, small hardware store torch,leak light and time. I knew a sax repairman who skipped the leak light and used cigar smoke.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 3rd 11:24 AM
Jim B.
There is no better method...eschew the mouthpiece, jam a tea towel in the bell, shut all the keys, position yourself in front of an observer, take a mouthful of good healthy cigarette smoke...and blow.
Smoke, under pressure, will find every interstice; and, unlike light, can travel around corners.
In all probability, an improvement on this method would be to conduct it under water...but, in our climate, this would be a trifle impracticable. :-)

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 3rd 3:25 PM
As a pipe smoker, I can vouch for the effectiveness - Balkan Sobranie #759 is particularly useful, in that it permeates and partially neutralises the 'smelliness' of the bore.

And to smoke a pipe whilst contemplating the 'next move', often saves rushing in and later regretting it...

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 3rd 4:32 PM
Alan...In all probability you can smoke your pipe and play the saxophone simultaneously...Roland Kirk, eat your heart out.

Eric
User ID: 0791694 Sep 3rd 7:33 PM
After all this advice, I don't think I'll be doing the repad myself- after all it's my first effort & I should do something simple, like a high pitch Albert clarinet that won't be a loss if I break it.
I've tried playing the horn as is- I can't play any lower than F below middle C and the tone is sort of "Goaty" but I love the feel if the key action- it's very springy and responsive and quite unlike my Conn.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 4th 4:13 AM
Yes, I'll bet it's only one or two real leaks, probably one of the high palm keys for a start, and check the side Bb/C, they're often shot or not quite seating... Certainly be worth a leak light / smoke / feeler / close visual inspection. You might get it playing for the sake of a couple of pads.

Most sax players who become fixers start 'gently' - replacing the odd pad or two on their own sax, and it goes from there. There's a lot to be said for my 'softly-softly' approach at first, until confidence builds. Sigh...

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 4th 4:17 AM
Eric.
Another consideration when people seek advice such as requested by you is that we have no concept of their manual dexterity or skill with tools.
We all tend to think that "if I can do it, then so can everyone else"...no so, of course. We all play the saxophone, easy when you know how and have put in yeas of practice. Others, who may have a degree in Theoretical Mathematics, find playing the saxophone incomprehensible.

Eric
User ID: 0791694 Sep 4th 4:35 AM
Thanks!
Regarding the leaks, there are more than a few- the condition of the lower stack is lousy & while the upper is playable it is not easy- I've got to press the keys pretty hard. It plays, but it's not really playable. Looking at the pads even the intact ones are ready to give out. I guess it's the leaks that give it a nasal quality. Someone must have liked this horn as it shows a lot of honest playing wear.

Jim B
User ID: 9440113 Sep 4th 7:35 AM
Whatever you do, when you hand the sax to a repair-person DON'T tell them you took the instrument apart. ALSO don't tell them you tried to fix it.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 4th 7:54 AM
Jim B.
Absolutely correct...rather like telling a panel beater that you have "half beaten out " the dent in your car's wing. (fender?)

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 4th 8:41 AM
Eric - I'm finding out that there are a few "unsung hero" repairmen out there, who don't have posh repair shops to pay for, but do good jobs (altho' not always quickly...) for a fair price.

Really worth sniffing around, ask anybody who might know, post on all the forums (not just the 'C' ones) and someone might just know one, or know someone else who might just know one. Also check out places like napbirt.org - you might find a bargain repairer, stranger things have happened...

Next 20 Messages

Eric User ID: 2170744	Sep 1st 8:22 AM Hello- I have a Buffet Crampon low pitch C Mel (Carl Fisher engraving on the front)numbered 24191. I can't find the serial number lists any more, but one in the past indicated it was from around 1919. Should I attempt repadding this myself? I've never done it before, but I've taken most of this apart and know that the majority of the rods and screws work freely. Here in the Albany NY area a repadding is going to be in at least the $500 range, among the few repairers who'd touch an old C mel.
Eric User ID: 2170744	Sep 1st 8:56 AM I SHOULD ADD...If I take the plunge and order a pad set from Musicmedic, anyone know what standard size (Buescher, Conn, Etc) would be the closest?
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 1st 11:32 AM Eric - the list I have says 1919/20. Whatever pad set you bought would leave you needing to order some separate replacements, so if it's apart already you may as well measure up and buy the correct individual sizes for the cups you have. Pads, adhesive, cork etc. will probably be below $100, so what do you have to lose ? Do you have to replace all of them at once - sometimes it's less daunting to replace just enough to get it playing, then the rest 'as you go'. If it's something you're doing 'for fun', that way you're not faced with seating a whole saxophone full of pads in one go. I've done it both ways, and sometimes regretted not listening to the old adage "if it ain't broke - don't fix it..." It's nice to do a complete repad, but can sometimes seem like an uphill struggle, moreso if you're a perfectionist.
Eric User ID: 2170744	Sep 1st 2:11 PM Thanks for the encouragement. The horn has what seems to be it's original set of white reflectorless pads, insect eaten and torn. The only real bit of damage is that the lowest key guard has broken off, but I still have it. Presently it isn't apart. I think I'll order a Conn C mel set- what ever doesn't fit I can put aside for my Wolverine/Conn.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 1st 3:12 PM From a different viewpoint...to me, it does not make much sense to remove, say, the bottom stack only to replace one of the pads...assuming that they are all relatively tatty. As you have gone to the trouble of taking the whole horn apart replace all the pads. I do agree with Alan that the cups should be measured individually and the pads ordered accordingly. The reason that repairmen charge so much for re-padding an old horn is the time it may take to take apart mechanisms which have been untouched for more than half a century and have, in many cases, seized.
Jim B User ID: 0979534	Sep 1st 4:33 PM You can also call Ferree's Tools Inc which sells pad sets. Their number is 1-800-253-2261 Email to ferreestools.aol.com. Web site is www.ferreestool.com They have pad sets for all saxs including c melody. y 2005 price list shows pad sets to be about as follows: You supply mm or inches: B40MC(C melody) set plain pad set=$25usa B42MC tan kid=$29.75usa B43 thin with flat metal resonator=$31usa B44MC thin with regular resonator=$31usa B46MC selmer style with domed resonator=$36.25usa And the list goes on for conn resopads, buescher pads etc---about a dozen types of pads. I would recommend taking the old set off and sending them to ferree's to match the sizes---worked for me
bruce bailey User ID: 9690803	Sep 2nd 12:15 AM First step is to buy an electronic caliper (Pep Boys has them) and after the pads are removed, measure each pad cup to insure the correct set size. Too small is better than too large. oversize pads will never seat flat. Also when in doubt, get thinner pads. For a first timer Iand even for me after 44 years) a hot glue gun is easier to use for adhering the pads as shellac can be really messy if you have not done it before. Order some various cork thickness to do the kickers and use contact cement in a tube (Big Lots) for the corks. Make a leak light. Go to church and pray. Buy the wife something to keep her busy for 2 weeks. Get a pair of really thick reading glasses to see the details, very important. Get a block of wood and drill a line of holes to insert the rods as you remove them so they will go back in the same order.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 2nd 4:29 AM See what I mean Eric - daunting isn't it....? All I was trying to say, is that if you want to enjoy the sax - and see what it plays/sounds like with minimal effort (and there's nothing worse than completely overhauling a sax with loving care, and finding it was a bad idea, for whatever reason...), then you don't have to completely - initially - renovate it. If the pads are brown (instead of original white), then they won't necessarily be 80 years old... Beeflat did a good job on a King C-Mel by just replacing a couple of 20's 'pillow' pads, as the rest were in very playable condition, but he's probably forgotten that. :-)) Bruce - two weeks to completion, fully regulated, if Eric has never done one before ? You don't need to do something like this "with the clock ticking", could take most of the winter... Eric, I'd really advise against getting a Conn set for the E&S, you'll have to buy more individual ones anyway - several good ideas about pads above. And you can download a free (Acrobat file) Repair Manual from my website, plus loads of info on the web. Good Luck !
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 2nd 5:09 AM Eric. Everything that you read here is true. In describing a process it often sounds far more difficult than it is...and we have described, in fairness, the worst case scenario from our individual experiences. Backgammon is a very simple game but the rules make it seem very complex...it is a matter of taking your time and exercising great care. I agree with other posters in that buying pads individually, as distinct from a set, is preferable; and err on the small side. Yes Alan, I did indeed replace just two pillow pads (which you very kindly provided) but the others were perfect...and I loved the sound. Had new pillow pads been available then I would have had no compunction in renewing them all. If you own a digital camera then photograph the mechanism in all it's detail...what seems obvious when you dismantle the horn is less so on reassembly. It is frustrating to be forced to take the horn apart again because some part of the mechanism should have been under, rather than over, another part. This does not apply to Alan. He can simply compare with anything up to five identical horns in his possession. :-))
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Sep 3rd 7:41 AM Eric just get a pad set and do it. Don't think about how difficult it is. Since you have already taking the instrument apart, advice to play it as is with the pads as is ----probably not an option now.It may take a month to work all the leaks out when the pads are installed but you can do it; do it slowly. Basic equipment needed are glue sticks, pad set, small hardware store torch,leak light and time. I knew a sax repairman who skipped the leak light and used cigar smoke.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 3rd 11:24 AM Jim B. There is no better method...eschew the mouthpiece, jam a tea towel in the bell, shut all the keys, position yourself in front of an observer, take a mouthful of good healthy cigarette smoke...and blow. Smoke, under pressure, will find every interstice; and, unlike light, can travel around corners. In all probability, an improvement on this method would be to conduct it under water...but, in our climate, this would be a trifle impracticable. :-)
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 3rd 3:25 PM As a pipe smoker, I can vouch for the effectiveness - Balkan Sobranie #759 is particularly useful, in that it permeates and partially neutralises the 'smelliness' of the bore. And to smoke a pipe whilst contemplating the 'next move', often saves rushing in and later regretting it...
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 3rd 4:32 PM Alan...In all probability you can smoke your pipe and play the saxophone simultaneously...Roland Kirk, eat your heart out.
Eric User ID: 0791694	Sep 3rd 7:33 PM After all this advice, I don't think I'll be doing the repad myself- after all it's my first effort & I should do something simple, like a high pitch Albert clarinet that won't be a loss if I break it. I've tried playing the horn as is- I can't play any lower than F below middle C and the tone is sort of "Goaty" but I love the feel if the key action- it's very springy and responsive and quite unlike my Conn.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 4th 4:13 AM Yes, I'll bet it's only one or two real leaks, probably one of the high palm keys for a start, and check the side Bb/C, they're often shot or not quite seating... Certainly be worth a leak light / smoke / feeler / close visual inspection. You might get it playing for the sake of a couple of pads. Most sax players who become fixers start 'gently' - replacing the odd pad or two on their own sax, and it goes from there. There's a lot to be said for my 'softly-softly' approach at first, until confidence builds. Sigh...
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 4th 4:17 AM Eric. Another consideration when people seek advice such as requested by you is that we have no concept of their manual dexterity or skill with tools. We all tend to think that "if I can do it, then so can everyone else"...no so, of course. We all play the saxophone, easy when you know how and have put in yeas of practice. Others, who may have a degree in Theoretical Mathematics, find playing the saxophone incomprehensible.
Eric User ID: 0791694	Sep 4th 4:35 AM Thanks! Regarding the leaks, there are more than a few- the condition of the lower stack is lousy & while the upper is playable it is not easy- I've got to press the keys pretty hard. It plays, but it's not really playable. Looking at the pads even the intact ones are ready to give out. I guess it's the leaks that give it a nasal quality. Someone must have liked this horn as it shows a lot of honest playing wear.
Jim B User ID: 9440113	Sep 4th 7:35 AM Whatever you do, when you hand the sax to a repair-person DON'T tell them you took the instrument apart. ALSO don't tell them you tried to fix it.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 4th 7:54 AM Jim B. Absolutely correct...rather like telling a panel beater that you have "half beaten out " the dent in your car's wing. (fender?)
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 4th 8:41 AM Eric - I'm finding out that there are a few "unsung hero" repairmen out there, who don't have posh repair shops to pay for, but do good jobs (altho' not always quickly...) for a fair price. Really worth sniffing around, ask anybody who might know, post on all the forums (not just the 'C' ones) and someone might just know one, or know someone else who might just know one. Also check out places like napbirt.org - you might find a bargain repairer, stranger things have happened...