Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: The Butlerian Jihad / Agamemnon

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Lenoxxx Feb 8th 12:38 PM
Hey in the original dune book house atreides says somewhere they could trace their lineage back to "agamemnon" then in BJ agamemnon is the cymek leader that spawned Vorian Atreides. Did FH have this planned out or were BA and young Herbert trying to just pull something out of their ass?

Lenoxxx

the mule
User ID: 0534004 Feb 8th 1:01 PM
House Atreides can trace their lineage to the ancient Greek King Agammemnon (house Atreus, I believe it may have been referred to). One of the other contributors on another thread pointed out that early in Children of Dune, Agammemnon is a voice within Alia's head. That the man who became the cymek chose Agammemnon as his moniker (sp?) is not surprising.

Vanguard3000
User ID: 0025534 Feb 9th 9:35 PM
If I recall correctly, the Atreides didn't know they were the descendants of the Greek King until LetoII came around.

the mule
User ID: 0534004 Feb 11th 7:24 PM
That's quite possible. I looked at Book IV again and it was hard to tell from Leto II memoirs if this only something he knew. Mohiam knew that the Atredies were "decendants of Kings". And who knows what Andrew Skouros knew about his heritage some 10000 yrs before Paul.

ozzy0
User ID: 6876843 Mar 17th 5:06 PM
how come agamemnon and vorian don`t have the same last name?

Vanguard3000 Mar 29th 12:36 PM
Perhaps when Andrew Skouros became Agammemnon, he had totally forsaken his last name, and created a new one for his son.

DSB Jul 9th 6:20 PM
Actually, if you take a look at House Atreides (the book), it shows that they did know of their Greek heritage (although this could be a screw-up by Brian and Kevin). In the softcover by Spectre, it talks quite a bit about Greece on page 23.

wirm Jul 31st 2:46 AM
The House Atreides book refers to the play Agamemnon. I read it in my Greek Mythology class, and it's not bad. The play is about betrayal, and sets the tone for the storyline. For those of you who haven't read the play, King Agamemnon returns victorious after sacking Troy, only to be murdered by his own wife.

Those of you who've read the entire Dune anthology know how important the motif of female betrayal is.

I thought it was a wonderful idea for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson to make a reference to the play.

Chris
User ID: 9551723 Jul 31st 11:24 AM
Wrong

wirm Jul 31st 11:53 AM
please elaborate on that Chris. There's plenty of information up there. Is everyone's post wrong in every way?

Chris
User ID: 9551723 Aug 1st 9:45 AM
No, just your last post about the Agamemnon play. Try reading the Odyssey, the Iliad, or even the Aeneid.

Chris
User ID: 9551723 Aug 1st 9:48 AM
Sorry, I should have just posted this link. Still read the epics though, they're excellent.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/agamemnon.html

wirm Aug 1st 12:57 PM
Chris,

What part of my post was wrong? I've read the oddysey, and the Iliad occurs before the death of Agamemnon.

And I am quite sure about my post. Aegisthus was the nephew of Atreus (possibly the source of the name Atreides). Atreus and Thyestes (his brother) fought for the throne, and finally, Atreus fed Thyestes the flesh of Thyestes' sons. Aegisthus was the only surviving son. He therefore had an obligation to destroy the house of Atreus. Before his death, Thyestes placed a curse on the house of Atreus.

Anyway, Clytemnaestra (Agamenon's wife) had many reasons to hate him. He had sacrificed his daughter at Aulis, he had taken a concubine (Cassandra), she was having an affair with Aegisthus (his cousin), plus the curse on the house of Atreus gave her an excuse.

In the play, Clytemnestra traps Agamemnon in the bath with tapestries, and then butchers him. In the Odyssey, Agamemnon was killed while taking a banquet.

So you see, I have read my classics. I don't know where you got your source information from, but either it's a smaller variant, or you weren't paying too much attention when you read Homer's Odyssey, or Aeschylus' Agamemnon.

BTW, this is great. I never thought I'd find a place to debate about Greek mythology. :)

daz Aug 3rd 8:16 PM
i always thought that the atreides did think they went back to the greeks but i cant recall why. however i know i knew this before reading house atreides.

wirm Aug 4th 12:12 PM
Yep,

I don't have any of the books on had right now, but I believe that either Leto or Ghanima said that. So its either in Children of Dune, or God Emperor of Dune. Though my guess is the first one.

Taqwa!
User ID: 9627953 Aug 12th 6:31 PM
Wirm's right about Agamemnon.

Children of Dune. Though I've got a feeling the name came up in an earlier book.

Freakzilla
User ID: 7789183 Jul 22nd 8:08 AM
Alia was tormented by Agamemnon in CoD:

"Prescience does this to you," a voice whispered.
She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me!
But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help."
"No . . . no," she whispered.
Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!"
"No . . . no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain.

Per Ghani in CoD:

"Because I'm his daughter," Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon and we know what's in our blood. Never forget that, childless wife of my father. We Atreides have a bloody history and we're not through with the blood."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

From GEoD:

I WAS born Leto Atreides II more than three thousand standard years ago, measuring from the moment when I cause these words to be printed. My father was Paul Muad'Dib. My mother was his Fremen consort, Chani. My maternal grandmother was Faroula, a noted herbalist among the Fremen. My paternal grandmother was Jessica, a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding scheme in their search for a male who could share the powers of the Sisterhood's Reverend Mothers. My maternal grandfather was Liet-Kynes, the planetologist who organized the ecological transformation of Arrakis. My paternal grandfather was Leto Atreides, descendant of the House of Atreus and tracing his ancestry directly back to the Greek original.

Guildsman
User ID: 2477284 Jul 23rd 1:14 AM
Has anyone else wondered how the Atreides know for sure that they're descended from Agammemnon? The only explanation I've come up with is that when an Atreides woman became a Reverend Mother she discovered in her Other Memory that an ancestor of hers was one of his daughters... any other ideas?

MelangeAddict Jul 23rd 9:25 AM
Good question Guildsman, I've been wondering the same thing. How can they be so sure, even if it were from a Reverend Mothers' Other Memories, it is concievable that the Reverend Mother could be lying for her own (read: the sisterhood's) inscrutible purposes. I would say Muad'Dib or the Tyrant found out, but the Atreides ancestry was known long before the time of Paul Atreides, it seems. Breeding records? No way. We can't trace lineage back to ancient Greece even now.

Ideas?

wormboy
User ID: 9314413 Oct 16th 11:14 PM
Actually, in the Dune Encylcopedia (well the pdf version downloaded from the internet) it says on page 84

"Bry's work mentions one Agamemnon d'Artreides, Governer of the Brunig district, who was assasinated around 175 BG while defending the use of computers before the rioting masses".

I know that the DE is just a publicaton by a fan, but there is definitely a similarity between BH's books and the DE on this particular issue.

Incidently, on the same page the DE mentions the desertion of Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen at the Battle of Corrin.

Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing.

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Lenoxxx	Feb 8th 12:38 PM Hey in the original dune book house atreides says somewhere they could trace their lineage back to "agamemnon" then in BJ agamemnon is the cymek leader that spawned Vorian Atreides. Did FH have this planned out or were BA and young Herbert trying to just pull something out of their ass? Lenoxxx
the mule User ID: 0534004	Feb 8th 1:01 PM House Atreides can trace their lineage to the ancient Greek King Agammemnon (house Atreus, I believe it may have been referred to). One of the other contributors on another thread pointed out that early in Children of Dune, Agammemnon is a voice within Alia's head. That the man who became the cymek chose Agammemnon as his moniker (sp?) is not surprising.
Vanguard3000 User ID: 0025534	Feb 9th 9:35 PM If I recall correctly, the Atreides didn't know they were the descendants of the Greek King until LetoII came around.
the mule User ID: 0534004	Feb 11th 7:24 PM That's quite possible. I looked at Book IV again and it was hard to tell from Leto II memoirs if this only something he knew. Mohiam knew that the Atredies were "decendants of Kings". And who knows what Andrew Skouros knew about his heritage some 10000 yrs before Paul.
ozzy0 User ID: 6876843	Mar 17th 5:06 PM how come agamemnon and vorian don`t have the same last name?
Vanguard3000	Mar 29th 12:36 PM Perhaps when Andrew Skouros became Agammemnon, he had totally forsaken his last name, and created a new one for his son.
DSB	Jul 9th 6:20 PM Actually, if you take a look at House Atreides (the book), it shows that they did know of their Greek heritage (although this could be a screw-up by Brian and Kevin). In the softcover by Spectre, it talks quite a bit about Greece on page 23.
wirm	Jul 31st 2:46 AM The House Atreides book refers to the play Agamemnon. I read it in my Greek Mythology class, and it's not bad. The play is about betrayal, and sets the tone for the storyline. For those of you who haven't read the play, King Agamemnon returns victorious after sacking Troy, only to be murdered by his own wife. Those of you who've read the entire Dune anthology know how important the motif of female betrayal is. I thought it was a wonderful idea for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson to make a reference to the play.
Chris User ID: 9551723	Jul 31st 11:24 AM Wrong
wirm	Jul 31st 11:53 AM please elaborate on that Chris. There's plenty of information up there. Is everyone's post wrong in every way?
Chris User ID: 9551723	Aug 1st 9:45 AM No, just your last post about the Agamemnon play. Try reading the Odyssey, the Iliad, or even the Aeneid.
Chris User ID: 9551723	Aug 1st 9:48 AM Sorry, I should have just posted this link. Still read the epics though, they're excellent. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/agamemnon.html
wirm	Aug 1st 12:57 PM Chris, What part of my post was wrong? I've read the oddysey, and the Iliad occurs before the death of Agamemnon. And I am quite sure about my post. Aegisthus was the nephew of Atreus (possibly the source of the name Atreides). Atreus and Thyestes (his brother) fought for the throne, and finally, Atreus fed Thyestes the flesh of Thyestes' sons. Aegisthus was the only surviving son. He therefore had an obligation to destroy the house of Atreus. Before his death, Thyestes placed a curse on the house of Atreus. Anyway, Clytemnaestra (Agamenon's wife) had many reasons to hate him. He had sacrificed his daughter at Aulis, he had taken a concubine (Cassandra), she was having an affair with Aegisthus (his cousin), plus the curse on the house of Atreus gave her an excuse. In the play, Clytemnestra traps Agamemnon in the bath with tapestries, and then butchers him. In the Odyssey, Agamemnon was killed while taking a banquet. So you see, I have read my classics. I don't know where you got your source information from, but either it's a smaller variant, or you weren't paying too much attention when you read Homer's Odyssey, or Aeschylus' Agamemnon. BTW, this is great. I never thought I'd find a place to debate about Greek mythology. :)
daz	Aug 3rd 8:16 PM i always thought that the atreides did think they went back to the greeks but i cant recall why. however i know i knew this before reading house atreides.
wirm	Aug 4th 12:12 PM Yep, I don't have any of the books on had right now, but I believe that either Leto or Ghanima said that. So its either in Children of Dune, or God Emperor of Dune. Though my guess is the first one.
Taqwa! User ID: 9627953	Aug 12th 6:31 PM Wirm's right about Agamemnon. Children of Dune. Though I've got a feeling the name came up in an earlier book.
Freakzilla User ID: 7789183	Jul 22nd 8:08 AM Alia was tormented by Agamemnon in CoD: "Prescience does this to you," a voice whispered. She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me! But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help." "No . . . no," she whispered. Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!" "No . . . no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain. Per Ghani in CoD: "Because I'm his daughter," Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon and we know what's in our blood. Never forget that, childless wife of my father. We Atreides have a bloody history and we're not through with the blood." Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?" From GEoD: I WAS born Leto Atreides II more than three thousand standard years ago, measuring from the moment when I cause these words to be printed. My father was Paul Muad'Dib. My mother was his Fremen consort, Chani. My maternal grandmother was Faroula, a noted herbalist among the Fremen. My paternal grandmother was Jessica, a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding scheme in their search for a male who could share the powers of the Sisterhood's Reverend Mothers. My maternal grandfather was Liet-Kynes, the planetologist who organized the ecological transformation of Arrakis. My paternal grandfather was Leto Atreides, descendant of the House of Atreus and tracing his ancestry directly back to the Greek original.
Guildsman User ID: 2477284	Jul 23rd 1:14 AM Has anyone else wondered how the Atreides know for sure that they're descended from Agammemnon? The only explanation I've come up with is that when an Atreides woman became a Reverend Mother she discovered in her Other Memory that an ancestor of hers was one of his daughters... any other ideas?
MelangeAddict	Jul 23rd 9:25 AM Good question Guildsman, I've been wondering the same thing. How can they be so sure, even if it were from a Reverend Mothers' Other Memories, it is concievable that the Reverend Mother could be lying for her own (read: the sisterhood's) inscrutible purposes. I would say Muad'Dib or the Tyrant found out, but the Atreides ancestry was known long before the time of Paul Atreides, it seems. Breeding records? No way. We can't trace lineage back to ancient Greece even now. Ideas?
wormboy User ID: 9314413	Oct 16th 11:14 PM Actually, in the Dune Encylcopedia (well the pdf version downloaded from the internet) it says on page 84 "Bry's work mentions one Agamemnon d'Artreides, Governer of the Brunig district, who was assasinated around 175 BG while defending the use of computers before the rioting masses". I know that the DE is just a publicaton by a fan, but there is definitely a similarity between BH's books and the DE on this particular issue. Incidently, on the same page the DE mentions the desertion of Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen at the Battle of Corrin. Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing.