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Dune House Atreides / Dune Book 7 / Opinions after you've finished the book

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Nora
Moderator
User ID: 8715613 Aug 27th 11:49 AM
Has anybody else finished Hunters of Dune?

Opinions here.

Wormboy Nov 19th 4:48 PM
Finally got around to reading it (I've been avoiding these websites to avoid spolers).

I thought it was quite good in itself, but a little predictable. I think that the main problem is that they should have released Hunters before the Legends series, then at the end of the book we'd be saying "Robots? WTF, where did they come from?". Instead we got multiple mentions of the 'mysterious enemy', who wasn't very mysterious at all.

With the BJ books released before Hunters, it made everything a little too predictible, which detracts from what is actually a decent book. Poor choice of release order is my main complaint.

RedPlanet
User ID: 2024664 Dec 27th 4:09 PM
Dune 7 is only moderately better than the previous 'prequals' that have been inflicted on Dune fans - and only because I suspect that BH is using more of FH's original notes that with the previous 'abominations'. Creating a worse novel that the previous effotrs, would have been hard to achieve, Some of the ideas and storyline in D7 are interesting, but the nuggets of intrigue are set in a sea of truly appaling writing and poor character defintion. I sped-read the book after the first couple of chapters. Pilling through the dreadful writing would have given me a stroke. The gulf between FH's talent and the BH/KJA symbiont monster is truly apparent.

A far better testimony to FH would have been to publish his notes - as Christopher tolkien did after JRR's death. That way the fans could have gotten an insight into the oriigns of the dune story and the possible out come of what would have been dune 7, without having to suffer the dross that BH and KJA have produced. So, BH and KJA, give us the notes, and let us decide. And please don't milk poor FH's legacy any more. Let him rest with some dignity.

Rael
User ID: 2860674 Feb 15th 6:34 PM
There is no specifc mention of an "Oracle of Time" in any of the books, however the term "Oracle" is used.

An Oracle is defined as the following:
1. (esp. in ancient Greece) an utterance, often ambiguous or obscure, given by a priest or priestess at a shrine as the response of a god to an inquiry.
2. the agency or medium giving such responses.
3. a shrine or place at which such responses were given: the oracle of Apollo at Delphi.
4. a person who delivers authoritative, wise, or highly regarded and influential pronouncements.
5. a divine communication or revelation.
6. any person or thing serving as an agency of divine communication.
7. any utterance made or received as authoritative, extremely wise, or infallible.
8. oracles, the Scriptures.

After reviewing all the mentions of "Oracle" in the books, most of them refer to Paul as being an "Oracle", but also it refers to anyone who has prescient ability or one who gives prophetic advise. Specifically Paul refers to Bijaz as his "Oracle". We all know that Frank loved to leave bread crumbs in his books, which linked to later books. After re-reading the series you can link mentions in Dune to events which occured later.

Below are some quotes from the books which I believe 'could' relate to the "Oracle of Time". These quotes have been copied from e-books so please don't ask for the page numbers...

I post this as others have been curious and I believe that the outline for Dune 7 was inspired and expanded on the original notes left by Frank.

*** Dune Messiah ***

"You'll give me the only heir I want," he said.
"You've seen this?" she asked, making it obvious by her emphasis that she referred to prescience.
As he had done many times, Paul wondered how he could explain the delicacy of the oracle, the Timelines without number which vision waved before him on an undulating fabric. He sighed, remembered water lifted from a river in the hollow of his hands -- trembling, draining. Memory drenched his face in it. How could he drench himself in futures growing increasingly obscure from the pressures of too many oracles?
"You've not seen it, then," Chani said.

"I only went because I want a child," Chani said.
Paul was unable to speak. He felt himself consumed by the raw power of that early vision. Terrible purpose! In that moment, his whole life was a limb shaken by the departure of a bird . . . and the bird was chance. Free will.
I succumbed to the lure of the oracle, he thought.
And he sensed that succumbing to this lure might be to fix himself upon a single-track life. Could it be, he wondered, that the oracle didn't tell the future? Could it be that the oracle made the future? Had he exposed his life to some web of underlying threads, trapped himself there in that long-ago awakening, victim of a spider-future which even now advanced upon him with terrifying jaws.

"The uninitiated try to conceive of prescience as obeying a Natural Law," Paul said. He steepled his hands in front of him. "But it'd be just as correct to say it's heaven speaking to us, that being able to read the future is a harmonious act of man's being. In other words, prediction is a natural consequence in the wave of the present. It wears the guise of nature, you see. But such powers cannot be used from an attitude that prestates aims and purposes. Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and confluences, places where the currents meet. Accepting prescience, you fill your being with concepts repugnant to the intellect. Your intellectual consciousness, therefore, rejects them. In rejecting, intellect becomes a part of the processes, and is subjugated."

*** God Emperor of Dune ***

"My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

"I wish he'd hurry up and die!" Siona said.
"I am the divided god and you would make me whole," Leto said. "Duncan? I think of all my Duncans I approve of you the most."
"Approve?" Some of the rage returned to Idaho's voice.
"There's magic in my approval," Leto said. "Anything's possible in a magic universe. Your life has been dominated by the Oracle's fatality, not mine. Now, you see the mysterious caprices and you would ask me to dispel this? I wished only to increase it." The others within Leto began to reassert themselves. Without the solidarity of the colonial group to support his identity, he began to lose his place among them. They started speaking the language of the constant "IF." "If you had only . . . If we had but. . ." He wanted to shout them into silence.
"Only fools prefer the past!"

We are not looking at a new state of matter but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metal workers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold, and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continued to operate their forges and wield their hammers.

-Mother Superior Taraza, Argument in Council

*** Chapterhouse Dune ***

Rebecca looked at her own birth in a new light. It had embarked her on movement toward an unknown destiny. Fraught with unseen perils and joys. So they had come around a bend in the river and found attackers. The next bend might reveal a cataract or a stretch of peaceful beauty. And here lay the magical enticement of prescience, the lure to which Muad'Dib and his Tyrant son had succumbed. The oracle knows what is to come! The horde of Lampadas had taught her not to seek oracles. The known could beleaguer her more than the unknown. The sweetness of the new lay in its surprises. Could the Rabbi see it?

Is that what you want, Rabbi? You will not like what you hear. I guarantee it. From the moment the oracle speaks your future becomes identical to your past. How you would wail in your boredom. Nothing new, not ever. Everything old in that one instant of revelation.

Rael
User ID: 2860674 Feb 15th 6:35 PM
Regarding Norma Cenva, she is only mentioned once in the books.

*** God Emperor of Dune ***

"I course backward down the flight of ancestors, hunting along the tributaries, darting into nooks and crannies. You would not recognize many of their names. Who has ever heard of Norma Cenva? I have lived her!"

"Lived her?" his imaginary visitor asked.

"Of course- Why else would one keep one's ancestors around'' You think a man designed the first Guild ship:' Your history books told you it was Aurelius Venport? They lied. It was his mistress, Norma. She gave him the design, along with five children. He thought his ego would take no less. In the end. the knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him."

Leon Feb 21st 8:12 AM
I really hated Dune 7. For me, Dune died after Dune 6.
Dune 7 is too much like the Butlerian Jihad, like in legends of Dune, maybe the worst trilogy I've ever read. And of course, there are so many errors in the book, too many to name.
I wish they would just leave the project, and leave Dune with a little dignity.

shinnok
User ID: 0993624 Feb 21st 12:34 PM
So the only mention of Norma, by one of her descendants who happens to have pre-memory and would know, makes no mention of her unique abilities. Abilities that make everyone else's in the Dune Universe, from Paul down to Teg, seem trivial.

Instead, Leto II focuses on the much less significant Aurelius Venport:

"He thought his ego would take no less. In the end. the knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him."

I can't believe Leto would consider Aurelius more important than someone that transcended even him.

shinnok
User ID: 0993624 Feb 21st 12:39 PM
I wrote:

I can't believe Leto would consider Aurelius more important than someone that transcended even him.

Unless, of course, the Norma we see in the prequals exists on some other Universe Brian invented and is trying to present as cannon. Then, the Leto we see in the real Dune would pay no more attention to her than one would give one of the Wright Brothers.

Freakzilla Feb 21st 1:53 PM
The only way I could enjoy reading the prequels/sequels and remain sane is to think of them occuring in an alternate Duniverse.

shinnok
User ID: 0993624 Feb 21st 4:48 PM
I agree. According to some theory I read in Ilium, it would be impossible to add to a universe already created by another mind. You might interact with its citizens, but you need to create your own.

On the other point, I did not mean to diss/downplay the Wright Brothers. While being the first to fly under their own power, navigating safely at trans-light speeds the way Norma 'invented' for the pre-guild would be a similar, if not greater feat.

Helo Mar 13th 11:12 AM
What the hell is with the end of dune 7. oh wow the robots are back i am so sure FH would have put that in his "notes" which have just mysteriously apeared. As someone here said earlier they tell you at the end of chapter house who the old man and women are... so lets think about that, it basically means there are no $&*^%$%%^ notes they lied to you all and as soon as you heard the story of how they found them you should of known. lets look at it from another point of view if FH was planning on bringing the whole machine story back why are there 2 entities, there would only be one old powerful machine being , and why would the old man (if he was a machine) be distracted by the want of trimming his roses and let Duncun go. I am sorry but this book is worth &%^&&^% and anyone who wasnt just trying to make money off their daddies legacy and anyone who has read all the books could do better, i swear from the books Brians never rea any of the Dune books and just skimmed along it till he found parts he could work with. If you are reading this and have not yet read of finished the book.

DONT BOTHER

Freakzilla Mar 14th 2:04 PM
"What the hell is with the end of dune 7. oh wow the robots are back i am so sure FH would have put that in his "notes" which have just mysteriously apeared."

BH&KJA have said that Erasmus and Ominous are entirely their creations and that the outline was only 2-1/2 to 3 pages.

shinnok
User ID: 1300074 Mar 14th 5:13 PM
I see. So Erasmus and Ominious are in reality the authors' lame attempts at creating a great "Enemy" for the Dune Universe, Tolkien style.

In reality, they appear more as unconscious reflections of the two authors. But why is one male and the other female? Hmmm.

Rael
User ID: 1731514 Mar 15th 9:55 PM
Guys, if you all knew that the book was going to be so 'lame' then why read it?

Do us all a favour, if you don't like the writings of Brian and Kevin, then don't read them!

Helo Mar 16th 8:09 AM
Freakzilla... do you have any clue what you just said, I &^%^& know that Erasmus and Ominious are BH and KJA's creation, but why are they in the 7th Dune book when FH has already told who they are if you actualy read what i wrote then maybe by chance that point would have soaked into your brain, but what i was saying was they are rewriting facts from dune 6 and putting them in dune 7 contradicting the orginal text in chapetrhouse. why does one need newly created enemies if Frank had already told us who they are, (face dancers that had absorbed so many life inprints that they had become superior being) just as Duncan could see the web because he had all the memories from his past lives making him...a superior being. Do i need to say more, and Freakzilla maybe read what i write this time instead of skimming through it coping some text and trying to sound clever.

Freakzilla Mar 16th 11:18 AM
Why bother? You obviously have all the answers.

Helo Mar 19th 7:21 AM
Well its good that you seem to know that at least. You may be more intelligent than you sound.

shinnok
User ID: 0993624 Mar 20th 10:49 AM
He doesn't 'sound,' he's read. Pretty well too, since he takes the time to use proper grammar.

shinnok
User ID: 0993624 Mar 20th 10:49 AM
Rael,

A lot of people read them because they're supposedly based on notes left by Frank Herbert's. We all know Brian is a shit writer, but we expected something better due to the greatness of the father somehow breaking through. It didn't.

Helo Mar 20th 11:10 AM
"but we expected something better due to the greatness of the father somehow breaking through. It didn't.", and you insult my grammer.
Laugh

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Nora Moderator User ID: 8715613	Aug 27th 11:49 AM Has anybody else finished Hunters of Dune? Opinions here.
Wormboy	Nov 19th 4:48 PM Finally got around to reading it (I've been avoiding these websites to avoid spolers). I thought it was quite good in itself, but a little predictable. I think that the main problem is that they should have released Hunters before the Legends series, then at the end of the book we'd be saying "Robots? WTF, where did they come from?". Instead we got multiple mentions of the 'mysterious enemy', who wasn't very mysterious at all. With the BJ books released before Hunters, it made everything a little too predictible, which detracts from what is actually a decent book. Poor choice of release order is my main complaint.
RedPlanet User ID: 2024664	Dec 27th 4:09 PM Dune 7 is only moderately better than the previous 'prequals' that have been inflicted on Dune fans - and only because I suspect that BH is using more of FH's original notes that with the previous 'abominations'. Creating a worse novel that the previous effotrs, would have been hard to achieve, Some of the ideas and storyline in D7 are interesting, but the nuggets of intrigue are set in a sea of truly appaling writing and poor character defintion. I sped-read the book after the first couple of chapters. Pilling through the dreadful writing would have given me a stroke. The gulf between FH's talent and the BH/KJA symbiont monster is truly apparent. A far better testimony to FH would have been to publish his notes - as Christopher tolkien did after JRR's death. That way the fans could have gotten an insight into the oriigns of the dune story and the possible out come of what would have been dune 7, without having to suffer the dross that BH and KJA have produced. So, BH and KJA, give us the notes, and let us decide. And please don't milk poor FH's legacy any more. Let him rest with some dignity.
Rael User ID: 2860674	Feb 15th 6:34 PM There is no specifc mention of an "Oracle of Time" in any of the books, however the term "Oracle" is used. An Oracle is defined as the following: 1. (esp. in ancient Greece) an utterance, often ambiguous or obscure, given by a priest or priestess at a shrine as the response of a god to an inquiry. 2. the agency or medium giving such responses. 3. a shrine or place at which such responses were given: the oracle of Apollo at Delphi. 4. a person who delivers authoritative, wise, or highly regarded and influential pronouncements. 5. a divine communication or revelation. 6. any person or thing serving as an agency of divine communication. 7. any utterance made or received as authoritative, extremely wise, or infallible. 8. oracles, the Scriptures. After reviewing all the mentions of "Oracle" in the books, most of them refer to Paul as being an "Oracle", but also it refers to anyone who has prescient ability or one who gives prophetic advise. Specifically Paul refers to Bijaz as his "Oracle". We all know that Frank loved to leave bread crumbs in his books, which linked to later books. After re-reading the series you can link mentions in Dune to events which occured later. Below are some quotes from the books which I believe 'could' relate to the "Oracle of Time". These quotes have been copied from e-books so please don't ask for the page numbers... I post this as others have been curious and I believe that the outline for Dune 7 was inspired and expanded on the original notes left by Frank. * Dune Messiah * "You'll give me the only heir I want," he said. "You've seen this?" she asked, making it obvious by her emphasis that she referred to prescience. As he had done many times, Paul wondered how he could explain the delicacy of the oracle, the Timelines without number which vision waved before him on an undulating fabric. He sighed, remembered water lifted from a river in the hollow of his hands -- trembling, draining. Memory drenched his face in it. How could he drench himself in futures growing increasingly obscure from the pressures of too many oracles? "You've not seen it, then," Chani said. "I only went because I want a child," Chani said. Paul was unable to speak. He felt himself consumed by the raw power of that early vision. Terrible purpose! In that moment, his whole life was a limb shaken by the departure of a bird . . . and the bird was chance. Free will. I succumbed to the lure of the oracle, he thought. And he sensed that succumbing to this lure might be to fix himself upon a single-track life. Could it be, he wondered, that the oracle didn't tell the future? Could it be that the oracle made the future? Had he exposed his life to some web of underlying threads, trapped himself there in that long-ago awakening, victim of a spider-future which even now advanced upon him with terrifying jaws. "The uninitiated try to conceive of prescience as obeying a Natural Law," Paul said. He steepled his hands in front of him. "But it'd be just as correct to say it's heaven speaking to us, that being able to read the future is a harmonious act of man's being. In other words, prediction is a natural consequence in the wave of the present. It wears the guise of nature, you see. But such powers cannot be used from an attitude that prestates aims and purposes. Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and confluences, places where the currents meet. Accepting prescience, you fill your being with concepts repugnant to the intellect. Your intellectual consciousness, therefore, rejects them. In rejecting, intellect becomes a part of the processes, and is subjugated." * God Emperor of Dune * "My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her." "What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice. "I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had." "I wish he'd hurry up and die!" Siona said. "I am the divided god and you would make me whole," Leto said. "Duncan? I think of all my Duncans I approve of you the most." "Approve?" Some of the rage returned to Idaho's voice. "There's magic in my approval," Leto said. "Anything's possible in a magic universe. Your life has been dominated by the Oracle's fatality, not mine. Now, you see the mysterious caprices and you would ask me to dispel this? I wished only to increase it." The others within Leto began to reassert themselves. Without the solidarity of the colonial group to support his identity, he began to lose his place among them. They started speaking the language of the constant "IF." "If you had only . . . If we had but. . ." He wanted to shout them into silence. "Only fools prefer the past!" We are not looking at a new state of matter but at a newly recognized relationship between consciousness and matter, which provides a more penetrating insight into the workings of prescience. The oracle shapes a projected inner universe to produce new external probabilities out of forces that are not understood. There is no need to understand these forces before using them to shape the physical universe. Ancient metal workers had no need to understand the molecular and submolecular complexities of their steel, bronze, copper, gold, and tin. They invented mystical powers to describe the unknown while they continued to operate their forges and wield their hammers. -Mother Superior Taraza, Argument in Council * Chapterhouse Dune * Rebecca looked at her own birth in a new light. It had embarked her on movement toward an unknown destiny. Fraught with unseen perils and joys. So they had come around a bend in the river and found attackers. The next bend might reveal a cataract or a stretch of peaceful beauty. And here lay the magical enticement of prescience, the lure to which Muad'Dib and his Tyrant son had succumbed. The oracle knows what is to come! The horde of Lampadas had taught her not to seek oracles. The known could beleaguer her more than the unknown. The sweetness of the new lay in its surprises. Could the Rabbi see it? Is that what you want, Rabbi? You will not like what you hear. I guarantee it. From the moment the oracle speaks your future becomes identical to your past. How you would wail in your boredom. Nothing new, not ever. Everything old in that one instant of revelation.
Rael User ID: 2860674	Feb 15th 6:35 PM Regarding Norma Cenva, she is only mentioned once in the books. * God Emperor of Dune * "I course backward down the flight of ancestors, hunting along the tributaries, darting into nooks and crannies. You would not recognize many of their names. Who has ever heard of Norma Cenva? I have lived her!" "Lived her?" his imaginary visitor asked. "Of course- Why else would one keep one's ancestors around'' You think a man designed the first Guild ship:' Your history books told you it was Aurelius Venport? They lied. It was his mistress, Norma. She gave him the design, along with five children. He thought his ego would take no less. In the end. the knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him."
Leon	Feb 21st 8:12 AM I really hated Dune 7. For me, Dune died after Dune 6. Dune 7 is too much like the Butlerian Jihad, like in legends of Dune, maybe the worst trilogy I've ever read. And of course, there are so many errors in the book, too many to name. I wish they would just leave the project, and leave Dune with a little dignity.
shinnok User ID: 0993624	Feb 21st 12:34 PM So the only mention of Norma, by one of her descendants who happens to have pre-memory and would know, makes no mention of her unique abilities. Abilities that make everyone else's in the Dune Universe, from Paul down to Teg, seem trivial. Instead, Leto II focuses on the much less significant Aurelius Venport: "He thought his ego would take no less. In the end. the knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him." I can't believe Leto would consider Aurelius more important than someone that transcended even him.
shinnok User ID: 0993624	Feb 21st 12:39 PM I wrote: I can't believe Leto would consider Aurelius more important than someone that transcended even him. Unless, of course, the Norma we see in the prequals exists on some other Universe Brian invented and is trying to present as cannon. Then, the Leto we see in the real Dune would pay no more attention to her than one would give one of the Wright Brothers.
Freakzilla	Feb 21st 1:53 PM The only way I could enjoy reading the prequels/sequels and remain sane is to think of them occuring in an alternate Duniverse.
shinnok User ID: 0993624	Feb 21st 4:48 PM I agree. According to some theory I read in Ilium, it would be impossible to add to a universe already created by another mind. You might interact with its citizens, but you need to create your own. On the other point, I did not mean to diss/downplay the Wright Brothers. While being the first to fly under their own power, navigating safely at trans-light speeds the way Norma 'invented' for the pre-guild would be a similar, if not greater feat.
Helo	Mar 13th 11:12 AM What the hell is with the end of dune 7. oh wow the robots are back i am so sure FH would have put that in his "notes" which have just mysteriously apeared. As someone here said earlier they tell you at the end of chapter house who the old man and women are... so lets think about that, it basically means there are no $&*^%$%%^ notes they lied to you all and as soon as you heard the story of how they found them you should of known. lets look at it from another point of view if FH was planning on bringing the whole machine story back why are there 2 entities, there would only be one old powerful machine being , and why would the old man (if he was a machine) be distracted by the want of trimming his roses and let Duncun go. I am sorry but this book is worth &%^&&^% and anyone who wasnt just trying to make money off their daddies legacy and anyone who has read all the books could do better, i swear from the books Brians never rea any of the Dune books and just skimmed along it till he found parts he could work with. If you are reading this and have not yet read of finished the book. DONT BOTHER
Freakzilla	Mar 14th 2:04 PM "What the hell is with the end of dune 7. oh wow the robots are back i am so sure FH would have put that in his "notes" which have just mysteriously apeared." BH&KJA have said that Erasmus and Ominous are entirely their creations and that the outline was only 2-1/2 to 3 pages.
shinnok User ID: 1300074	Mar 14th 5:13 PM I see. So Erasmus and Ominious are in reality the authors' lame attempts at creating a great "Enemy" for the Dune Universe, Tolkien style. In reality, they appear more as unconscious reflections of the two authors. But why is one male and the other female? Hmmm.
Rael User ID: 1731514	Mar 15th 9:55 PM Guys, if you all knew that the book was going to be so 'lame' then why read it? Do us all a favour, if you don't like the writings of Brian and Kevin, then don't read them!
Helo	Mar 16th 8:09 AM Freakzilla... do you have any clue what you just said, I &^%^& know that Erasmus and Ominious are BH and KJA's creation, but why are they in the 7th Dune book when FH has already told who they are if you actualy read what i wrote then maybe by chance that point would have soaked into your brain, but what i was saying was they are rewriting facts from dune 6 and putting them in dune 7 contradicting the orginal text in chapetrhouse. why does one need newly created enemies if Frank had already told us who they are, (face dancers that had absorbed so many life inprints that they had become superior being) just as Duncan could see the web because he had all the memories from his past lives making him...a superior being. Do i need to say more, and Freakzilla maybe read what i write this time instead of skimming through it coping some text and trying to sound clever.
Freakzilla	Mar 16th 11:18 AM Why bother? You obviously have all the answers.
Helo	Mar 19th 7:21 AM Well its good that you seem to know that at least. You may be more intelligent than you sound.
shinnok User ID: 0993624	Mar 20th 10:49 AM He doesn't 'sound,' he's read. Pretty well too, since he takes the time to use proper grammar.
shinnok User ID: 0993624	Mar 20th 10:49 AM Rael, A lot of people read them because they're supposedly based on notes left by Frank Herbert's. We all know Brian is a shit writer, but we expected something better due to the greatness of the father somehow breaking through. It didn't.
Helo	Mar 20th 11:10 AM "but we expected something better due to the greatness of the father somehow breaking through. It didn't.", and you insult my grammer. Laugh