Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: House Atreides / B Herbert - please read theDune Encyl!

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Bryan from Mich
User ID: 0366544 Apr 24th 7:31 PM
I just finished reading House Atreides, and I have mixed feelings. I haven't read a Dune book in many years, and was very excited to learn that a book was coming out that focused on the early characters. I dug up my Dune Encylopedia and used it as a reference in case I forgot information about some of the characters.
The further I read, the greater my disappointment became. There are so many inconsistencies with the Encylopedia, I wonder if Brian Herbert had even bothered to read it. Many facts were blatantly wrong:

Leto was the sone of Mintor Atreides, NOT Paulos.
Leto's mother died during his delivery.
Leto avenged the death of his father in the bull-ring - it wasn't sliced to pieces by Hawat and his gaurds with lasguns
Leto became a Duke at 23, not 15
Elrood IX was emporor for 34 years, not over 100.
Duncan Idaho was a native of Caladan, not Geidi Prime.
Enormous events like the Trial by Forfeiture and the sacking of IX by the Tleilaxu were never mentioned in the Encylopedia.

I could go on and on. I find it unsettling that Brian Herbert didn't bother to align the prequel with the Dune Encyclopedia. The trilogy is so rich and there are so many unexplained events left open by Frank Herbert, I find it difficult to believe that Brian couldn't work within the constraints left by his father.

The book was well written and interestingbut it wasn't worth enduring the blatant disregard of Frank Herbert's original intent.

Am I the only one that was disturbed by this?

Miles Teg
User ID: 3034424 Apr 25th 10:30 AM
It is too bad the book didn't follow the Encylopedia. My guess is that the authors of House Atreidies did not want to be constrained by what was already writen in the Encyclopedia. This is understandable because many of the details that are fleshed out in the Encyclopedia come from sources other than Frank Herbert. Brian Herbert probably felt no need to be faithful to the Encyclopedia because it did not come from his father (even though Frank did give his aproval).

Bryan from Mich
User ID: 0366544 Apr 25th 5:13 PM
Miles,

I interpreted Herbert's forward on the 1st page of the Encyclopedia as an endorsement. Many of the constraints were very vague, often only mentioning an event in terms of the period it occurred and the individuals involved. I think that Brian Herbert could have modified the stories to adhere to these loose standards, while still producing an exciting book.

Overlooking minor details is understandable, but incorrectly identifying Leto's father is unforgivable - he was mentioned by name in Dune! And wouldn't it have been exciting to have details of Leto's avenging bull-fight?

Thanks for the feedback...

Dave
User ID: 0317884 Apr 26th 3:23 AM
I had a similar reaction when I first read the book, but Brian Herbert has stated that they did not follow the Dune Encyclopedia in their work, but FRANK HERBERT's unpublished notes. the Dune Encyclopedia was not written by Frank Herbert, nor sanctioned, but was allowed to be published for its intrest value. Frank Herbert did not contribute to its creation, it was written by an independent author. Thus Brian and Kevin followed uncovered Frank Herbert original notes, NOT the Encyclopedia. Too bad though that it does not all fit together (among other dodgy things).

Miles Teg
User ID: 3034424 Apr 26th 4:52 PM
I didn't realize the name of Leto's father was mentioned in the book. That's a pretty big thing to miss. Oh, the damnable inconsistencies of life.

That said, I am happy new Dune stories are being written and planed. It has been alot of fun to re-enter the beloved universe of Dune.

Bryan from Mich
User ID: 0366544 Apr 26th 7:46 PM
Frank Herbert enthusiastically endorsed the Dune Encylopedia: "...I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval...".

I would like to see these "unpublished notes" from Frank...! I think many readers embraced the Dune Encylopedia, I know that I did...

I will be a sucker and will buy the following books, because Dune so thoroughly captured my imagination throughout my teen years. However, I wish that Brian would have went off in his own literary direction, and let the greatest story of all time rest in peace...

Fedaykin
User ID: 9321503 Apr 28th 1:27 AM
here here.

the inconsistencies further show that the writers of the abomination (for which i shall now on refer to it for what it is) had little to no regard for the brilliant theological, political, ecological and intrinsically multi-layered universe that made the Dune series one of the arguably best pieces of literature ever made.

i wouldn't use the abomination as cheap toilet paper.

Fedaykin
User ID: 9321503 Apr 28th 1:30 AM
is it just me, or was Gurney Halleck the one who came from the harkonnen slave pits? (hence the inkvine scar) or will the writers of the abomination further persist in bastardizing the brilliant sci-fi world of dune and have all loyal atreides retainers and soldiers as ex-harkonnen slaves mired with the same old predictable revenge plot?

Jeremiah Gowdy
User ID: 2059234 May 5th 11:16 AM
I recently purchaced a copy of Dune: House Atreides. I simply wanted to point out that there are several contradictions between this new book written by Brian Herbert and the original series. When one writes a prequil, one must make sure that the elements introduced in the story do not contradict with the rest of the story already established.

(1) In House Atredies, the story shows that Jessica's mother is the Reverend Mother Heilen Gaius Moheim, but in Children of Dune, Leto is quoted saying to his grandmother Jessica, "Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen". I would doubt in the extreme that one could contradict what Leto said at that point, because he has all of the memories of his family for millennia, male and female. He could certainly pick out who his great grandmother is.

(2) In House Atredies, the Harkonnens aquire a No-Ship and No-Globe. These are extremely hard to swallow. First off, Heretics of Dune states outright, the Harkonnen No-Globe was contructed by the House Harkonnen during the rein of the God Emperor. Second, the idea that a No-Ship was built, almost 4,000 years or more before the Ixians and the Guild worked together for years to block the power of prescience, without any assistance from the Guild for testing. If there _were_ assistance from the Guild, the Guild would _know_ that No-Globes could be built, 4,000 years before they ever decided to get down and build one. Remember, the Guild claims to know the contents of every shipment they carry.

(3) In House Atreides, the Guild ship "falls out of foldspace" when Duke Leto activates his shields. The process of folding space is supposed to be instant, or nearly instant. Surely not enough time for anyone to act out the entire battle with the No-Ship and the Bene Telixu.

I don't mean to totally detract from the story. It was a good novel, and a well written and executed story, but being a hard core Sci-Fi series, you have to pay special attention to detail otherwise you have a bunch of nerds like me poking holes in your story :)

Lord Artreus
User ID: 1480824 May 5th 8:01 PM
I am surprised that so many people take the Dune Encyclopaedia so seriously.

The Dune Encyclopaedia was NOT written by Frank Herbert, and as such, should be treated as apochryphal, and a non-canonical work.

Therefore, any inconsistencies that arise as one reads the Dune Prequel novels should be a result of differences between them and Frank Herbert's novels.

However, I think that if I ever found a copy of the Dune Encyclopaedia, I would almost certainly buy it, as it would give a good insight into this great series.

Jack
User ID: 0038914 May 7th 2:04 PM
Speaking of which, has anyone a copy of the encylopedia available, or knows of one? I have been a Dune fan for quite a few years, and i have never once laid eyes upon the holy text.

Fedaykin
User ID: 9321503 May 11th 6:12 PM
Well, out of interest i assembled my own listing of known facts derived from the 6 dune novels. I think that we can legitimiately base facts for the rest of the series from these, and therefore they should be considered "canonical".

dave
User ID: 3160124 May 12th 9:12 AM
Rambus? (Ixian Prince) could later become Gurney Halleck so it looks. This would likely happen as he is captured and given to the harkonnens where he spends time on Inkvine. Leto would later rescue him, the name change being done to protect his real idenity???

Adam
User ID: 0289604 May 12th 12:47 PM
I could go along with Rhombur becoming Gurney Halleck, except that the two personalities are entirely different. I have trouble picturing being subservient to anyone. He is a proud heir of a Great House and I can't ever picture him pretending to be someone else to protect himself. Whereas Gurney seems more like someone who needs to follow someone.

Kaiser
User ID: 0339064 May 12th 2:52 PM
I dont understand why so many people look to the Dune Encyclopedia for the details.....it wasnt written by Frank Herbert....if anything THAT is the "abomination". I am very disturbed to hear so many people's arguments against HA based on this encyclopedia that is NOT official.

Quite frankly I hated Frank Herbert's Dune books after the third one.

Adam
User ID: 0289604 May 13th 2:30 PM
Why?

Kaiser
User ID: 0339064 May 13th 9:50 PM
To me it veered off course from the original book too much, sorta like the jumping of millions of years into the future with all the familiar characters gone and especially the ones I liked most.

I really liked the social strife theme of the original book and to me it was not repeated as brilliantly in the the last few books as it was in the first. This is the reason I liked HA so much, it went back to the roots of Herbert's ideas.

Fedaykin
User ID: 9321503 May 18th 1:03 AM
sounds like you're lack of scope and comprehension is leading your criticism of Frank Herbert. D:HA was a piece, quite simply

further, to respond to other posts, the attacks on D:HA are all coming from references Frank Herbert made in his works. just because these references have been compiled in chronological order does not legitimize them.

Avid Reader
User ID: 0721754 May 20th 4:04 AM
The encyclopedia is not the point. D:HA is in blatant contradiction with Frank Herberts works. Dune is more than a story. Its is Frank Herberts philosophy of life written so that we can grasp it and understand it. While D:HA obviously uses Franks words in certain areas the story does not realy his philosophy. It is in contradiciton because of this point as well as the inconsistency in facts. I enjoyed D:HA but it is as if another man, besides Plato, wrote "The Apology 2" now and called it a sequel. While it may be good it surly would possess a different focus. It is a shame Herbert could not complete Dune 7 but I think that no true true addition to the series can be made now. I also would like to see the notes he left published and I think that would the best possible conclusion.

Kaiser
User ID: 1613614 May 23rd 1:49 PM
My lack of "scope and comprehension" obviously hasn't blinded me to the fact the Dune contained many many themes that all pertained to our struggly for existence on earth also. When the sequels kept coming, it eventually boiled down into a book on mysticism's effects on humanity. Therefore, it lost the depth and complexity while still retaining the intricacies of plot.

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Bryan from Mich User ID: 0366544	Apr 24th 7:31 PM I just finished reading House Atreides, and I have mixed feelings. I haven't read a Dune book in many years, and was very excited to learn that a book was coming out that focused on the early characters. I dug up my Dune Encylopedia and used it as a reference in case I forgot information about some of the characters. The further I read, the greater my disappointment became. There are so many inconsistencies with the Encylopedia, I wonder if Brian Herbert had even bothered to read it. Many facts were blatantly wrong: Leto was the sone of Mintor Atreides, NOT Paulos. Leto's mother died during his delivery. Leto avenged the death of his father in the bull-ring - it wasn't sliced to pieces by Hawat and his gaurds with lasguns Leto became a Duke at 23, not 15 Elrood IX was emporor for 34 years, not over 100. Duncan Idaho was a native of Caladan, not Geidi Prime. Enormous events like the Trial by Forfeiture and the sacking of IX by the Tleilaxu were never mentioned in the Encylopedia. I could go on and on. I find it unsettling that Brian Herbert didn't bother to align the prequel with the Dune Encyclopedia. The trilogy is so rich and there are so many unexplained events left open by Frank Herbert, I find it difficult to believe that Brian couldn't work within the constraints left by his father. The book was well written and interestingbut it wasn't worth enduring the blatant disregard of Frank Herbert's original intent. Am I the only one that was disturbed by this?
Miles Teg User ID: 3034424	Apr 25th 10:30 AM It is too bad the book didn't follow the Encylopedia. My guess is that the authors of House Atreidies did not want to be constrained by what was already writen in the Encyclopedia. This is understandable because many of the details that are fleshed out in the Encyclopedia come from sources other than Frank Herbert. Brian Herbert probably felt no need to be faithful to the Encyclopedia because it did not come from his father (even though Frank did give his aproval).
Bryan from Mich User ID: 0366544	Apr 25th 5:13 PM Miles, I interpreted Herbert's forward on the 1st page of the Encyclopedia as an endorsement. Many of the constraints were very vague, often only mentioning an event in terms of the period it occurred and the individuals involved. I think that Brian Herbert could have modified the stories to adhere to these loose standards, while still producing an exciting book. Overlooking minor details is understandable, but incorrectly identifying Leto's father is unforgivable - he was mentioned by name in Dune! And wouldn't it have been exciting to have details of Leto's avenging bull-fight? Thanks for the feedback...
Dave User ID: 0317884	Apr 26th 3:23 AM I had a similar reaction when I first read the book, but Brian Herbert has stated that they did not follow the Dune Encyclopedia in their work, but FRANK HERBERT's unpublished notes. the Dune Encyclopedia was not written by Frank Herbert, nor sanctioned, but was allowed to be published for its intrest value. Frank Herbert did not contribute to its creation, it was written by an independent author. Thus Brian and Kevin followed uncovered Frank Herbert original notes, NOT the Encyclopedia. Too bad though that it does not all fit together (among other dodgy things).
Miles Teg User ID: 3034424	Apr 26th 4:52 PM I didn't realize the name of Leto's father was mentioned in the book. That's a pretty big thing to miss. Oh, the damnable inconsistencies of life. That said, I am happy new Dune stories are being written and planed. It has been alot of fun to re-enter the beloved universe of Dune.
Bryan from Mich User ID: 0366544	Apr 26th 7:46 PM Frank Herbert enthusiastically endorsed the Dune Encylopedia: "...I give this encyclopedia my delighted approval...". I would like to see these "unpublished notes" from Frank...! I think many readers embraced the Dune Encylopedia, I know that I did... I will be a sucker and will buy the following books, because Dune so thoroughly captured my imagination throughout my teen years. However, I wish that Brian would have went off in his own literary direction, and let the greatest story of all time rest in peace...
Fedaykin User ID: 9321503	Apr 28th 1:27 AM here here. the inconsistencies further show that the writers of the <i>abomination</i> (for which i shall now on refer to it for what it is) had little to no regard for the brilliant theological, political, ecological and intrinsically multi-layered universe that made the Dune series one of the arguably best pieces of literature ever made. i wouldn't use the <i>abomination</i> as cheap toilet paper.
Fedaykin User ID: 9321503	Apr 28th 1:30 AM is it just me, or was Gurney Halleck the one who came from the harkonnen slave pits? (hence the inkvine scar) or will the writers of the <i>abomination</i> further persist in bastardizing the brilliant sci-fi world of dune and have all loyal atreides retainers and soldiers as ex-harkonnen slaves mired with the same old predictable revenge plot?
Jeremiah Gowdy User ID: 2059234	May 5th 11:16 AM I recently purchaced a copy of Dune: House Atreides. I simply wanted to point out that there are several contradictions between this new book written by Brian Herbert and the original series. When one writes a prequil, one must make sure that the elements introduced in the story do not contradict with the rest of the story already established. (1) In House Atredies, the story shows that Jessica's mother is the Reverend Mother Heilen Gaius Moheim, but in Children of Dune, Leto is quoted saying to his grandmother Jessica, "Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen". I would doubt in the extreme that one could contradict what Leto said at that point, because he has all of the memories of his family for millennia, male and female. He could certainly pick out who his great grandmother is. (2) In House Atredies, the Harkonnens aquire a No-Ship and No-Globe. These are extremely hard to swallow. First off, Heretics of Dune states outright, the Harkonnen No-Globe was contructed by the House Harkonnen during the rein of the God Emperor. Second, the idea that a No-Ship was built, almost 4,000 years or more before the Ixians and the Guild worked together for years to block the power of prescience, without any assistance from the Guild for testing. If there _were_ assistance from the Guild, the Guild would _know_ that No-Globes could be built, 4,000 years before they ever decided to get down and build one. Remember, the Guild claims to know the contents of every shipment they carry. (3) In House Atreides, the Guild ship "falls out of foldspace" when Duke Leto activates his shields. The process of folding space is supposed to be instant, or nearly instant. Surely not enough time for anyone to act out the entire battle with the No-Ship and the Bene Telixu. I don't mean to totally detract from the story. It was a good novel, and a well written and executed story, but being a hard core Sci-Fi series, you have to pay special attention to detail otherwise you have a bunch of nerds like me poking holes in your story :)
Lord Artreus User ID: 1480824	May 5th 8:01 PM I am surprised that so many people take the Dune Encyclopaedia so seriously. The Dune Encyclopaedia was NOT written by Frank Herbert, and as such, should be treated as apochryphal, and a non-canonical work. Therefore, any inconsistencies that arise as one reads the Dune Prequel novels should be a result of differences between them and Frank Herbert's novels. However, I think that if I ever found a copy of the Dune Encyclopaedia, I would almost certainly buy it, as it would give a good insight into this great series.
Jack User ID: 0038914	May 7th 2:04 PM Speaking of which, has anyone a copy of the encylopedia available, or knows of one? I have been a Dune fan for quite a few years, and i have never once laid eyes upon the holy text.
Fedaykin User ID: 9321503	May 11th 6:12 PM Well, out of interest i assembled my own listing of known facts derived from the 6 dune novels. I think that we can legitimiately base facts for the rest of the series from these, and therefore they should be considered "canonical".
dave User ID: 3160124	May 12th 9:12 AM Rambus? (Ixian Prince) could later become Gurney Halleck so it looks. This would likely happen as he is captured and given to the harkonnens where he spends time on Inkvine. Leto would later rescue him, the name change being done to protect his real idenity???
Adam User ID: 0289604	May 12th 12:47 PM I could go along with Rhombur becoming Gurney Halleck, except that the two personalities are entirely different. I have trouble picturing being subservient to anyone. He is a proud heir of a Great House and I can't ever picture him pretending to be someone else to protect himself. Whereas Gurney seems more like someone who needs to follow someone.
Kaiser User ID: 0339064	May 12th 2:52 PM I dont understand why so many people look to the Dune Encyclopedia for the details.....it wasnt written by Frank Herbert....if anything THAT is the "abomination". I am very disturbed to hear so many people's arguments against HA based on this encyclopedia that is NOT official. Quite frankly I hated Frank Herbert's Dune books after the third one.
Adam User ID: 0289604	May 13th 2:30 PM Why?
Kaiser User ID: 0339064	May 13th 9:50 PM To me it veered off course from the original book too much, sorta like the jumping of millions of years into the future with all the familiar characters gone and especially the ones I liked most. I really liked the social strife theme of the original book and to me it was not repeated as brilliantly in the the last few books as it was in the first. This is the reason I liked HA so much, it went back to the roots of Herbert's ideas.
Fedaykin User ID: 9321503	May 18th 1:03 AM sounds like you're lack of scope and comprehension is leading your criticism of Frank Herbert. D:HA was a piece, quite simply further, to respond to other posts, the attacks on D:HA are all coming from references Frank Herbert made in his works. just because these references have been compiled in chronological order does not legitimize them.
Avid Reader User ID: 0721754	May 20th 4:04 AM The encyclopedia is not the point. D:HA is in blatant contradiction with Frank Herberts works. Dune is more than a story. Its is Frank Herberts philosophy of life written so that we can grasp it and understand it. While D:HA obviously uses Franks words in certain areas the story does not realy his philosophy. It is in contradiciton because of this point as well as the inconsistency in facts. I enjoyed D:HA but it is as if another man, besides Plato, wrote "The Apology 2" now and called it a sequel. While it may be good it surly would possess a different focus. It is a shame Herbert could not complete Dune 7 but I think that no true true addition to the series can be made now. I also would like to see the notes he left published and I think that would the best possible conclusion.
Kaiser User ID: 1613614	May 23rd 1:49 PM My lack of "scope and comprehension" obviously hasn't blinded me to the fact the Dune contained many many themes that all pertained to our struggly for existence on earth also. When the sequels kept coming, it eventually boiled down into a book on mysticism's effects on humanity. Therefore, it lost the depth and complexity while still retaining the intricacies of plot.