Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: House Atreides / DUNE CONTRADICTIONS

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Jeremiah Gowdy
User ID: 2059234 May 5th 11:12 AM
I recently purchaced a copy of Dune: House Atreides. I simply wanted to point out that there are several contradictions between this new book written by Brian Herbert and the original series. When one writes a prequil, one must make sure that the elements introduced in the story do not contradict with the rest of the story already established.

(1) In House Atredies, the story shows that Jessica's mother is the Reverend Mother Heilen Gaius Moheim, but in Children of Dune, Leto is quoted saying to his grandmother Jessica, "Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen". I would doubt in the extreme that one could contradict what Leto said at that point, because he has all of the memories of his family for millennia, male and female. He could certainly pick out who his great grandmother is.

(2) In House Atredies, the Harkonnens aquire a No-Ship and No-Globe. These are extremely hard to swallow. First off, Heretics of Dune states outright, the Harkonnen No-Globe was contructed by the House Harkonnen during the rein of the God Emperor. Second, the idea that a No-Ship was built, almost 4,000 years or more before the Ixians and the Guild worked together for years to block the power of prescience, without any assistance from the Guild for testing. If there _were_ assistance from the Guild, the Guild would _know_ that No-Globes could be built, 4,000 years before they ever decided to get down and build one. Remember, the Guild claims to know the contents of every shipment they carry.

(3) In House Atreides, the Guild ship "falls out of foldspace" when Duke Leto activates his shields. The process of folding space is supposed to be instant, or nearly instant. Surely not enough time for anyone to act out the entire battle with the No-Ship and the Bene Telixu.

I don't mean to totally detract from the story. It was a good novel, and a well written and executed story, but being a hard core Sci-Fi series, you have to pay special attention to detail otherwise you have a bunch of nerds like me poking holes in your story :)

Jeremiah Gowdy
User ID: 2059234 May 5th 11:19 AM
That last post was sent as an email to the dunenovel.com group. What's funny to me is, after I wrote this and posted it, I read several other people's posts where they point out other flaws. I believe people in the position to write such a book, should use people who are rabid sci-fi fans (like me) to assist them in keeping the story "true" to it's history. Just like the errors in Star Trek that occur all the time. They have so many people obsessed with it, it would be easy to tap their knowlege.

Jack
User ID: 0038914 May 9th 2:40 PM
The no ship in HA: a one off created by a renegade Ixian (or something), the only one who knew of its workings, who then dies. This isn't an error.

Fedaykin
User ID: 9321503 May 11th 5:12 PM
my mistake. it's just stupidity and completely unbelievable then.

Liam Cognet
User ID: 9551723 Jun 14th 11:32 PM
The flaws pointed out above have been explained by Brian Herbers on his web site (www.dunenovels.com), however, the flaw pointed out in relation to Jessica's mother has not been given an explanation by Brian Herbert. This flaw(pointed out by Jeremiah Gowdy) should be sent to Brian or Kevin for an explanation. If any one finds an explanation could they please let me know.

-Dark Shogun cognet@corplink.com.au

daneel olivaw
User ID: 3946674 Jun 28th 10:56 AM
yeah, well what about the bene tleilax???they do not reveal their true religious fervor before the end of the rule of the tyran...they are not studpid grey gnomes...they rival in complexity with all the rest of the dune universe...

they had a kwisatz haderach to toy with...

well...
even though i do not like HA, it was satisfying to see that DUNE continues...but BH respect what was established in the DUNE cycle...not destroy it all with his lame ass books...

Fred Nevets
User ID: 9189423 Jun 29th 5:04 PM
That's another good point. In HA the Bene Tleilax's religious beliefs are common knowledge, yet in the later Dune novels they are a closely guarded secret.

Sometimes I wonder if Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson even read the novels, or if they just rented the Dune movie and skimmed through the books.

daneel olivaw
User ID: 9370173 Jul 3rd 10:50 AM
it almost seems like heresy to write a book like HA associated with the genius of frank herbert...nevertheless, ill take what i can...

reading a new dune book is fantastatic, even if it isnt that great. i wonder how you can only read such books once? i read my dune and foundation books at least 2 times a year. and each time, i discover new things...our tastes change over the years, but these books remain constant...something that didnt seem important 5 years ago, can be important now...

Margo
User ID: 1397584 Sep 23rd 3:46 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with you daneel! Dune and Foundation are my Bibles as far as leisure reading's concerned. BTW is there any Foundation- related site or message board? I think there's just as much to discuss within Asimov's books as there is in Dune...

True
User ID: 9043333 Dec 1st 3:25 PM
I'm currently reading House Atreides for the first time and I was really struck by the fact that the authors seem far more influenced by the _movie_ than the books. I enjoy the movie, but there are elements in it that are not supported by the book Dune that seem to keep popping up in the narrative. Someone earlier said that they thought the writers just watched the movie. I tend to agree there is way too much influence from the movie in the books.

(For instance at the end of the book Dune, Paul confronts two Guild bankers and recognizes them as navigators when the eye lens of one is removed. In House Atreides, the navigators are described as being identical to the creatures in the movie. These are not creatures that could be disguised by simple contact lenses.)

Kaiser
User ID: 9635043 Dec 2nd 2:02 PM
1.) About the Guild Navigators, in Dune Messiah they are revealed as fish like with fins etc. (Edric is my evidence). I dont think this is a flaw but maybe even a slight discrepancy in the original trilogy.

2.) Gaius Helen Mohiam's REAL name IS Tanidia Nerus, it was changed to GHM when she joined the Bene Gesserit, a fine point but a point nontheless.

3.)It was a Richesian inventor who helped the harkonnens in the construction of the No-Globe :)

All the other contradictions i agree with. Flame away!

JtOct
User ID: 9656233 Dec 30th 12:56 AM
I read House Atreides and thought it was good. However, I purchased all of the other Dune novels ( which I haven't read yet) expecting more of the same. How are the writing styles different between Frank Herbert and the authors of the prequel trilogy? Anyone?

Ending Dream 23 Dec 30th 3:07 PM
More of the same... well I'd say you'll get something like that. The new books do try to emulate the style of the originals so, you should be very satisfied. ->Originals better -coughs-

Margo Dec 31st 5:22 AM
Read the originals first. If you've begun the prequels, put them away and forget them for now. Believe me, its better this way, for the story's good as well as yours. I can understand your notion of "more of the same" if you begin your life with Dune by reading BH and KJA's works. BUT. These were written later, despite their name. Come to think of it, is there any prequel out there that is actually a good read prior to its original series? BH and KJAs' writing style differs largely, but you'll have to read it to believe it ;-)

Pete
User ID: 9537533 Jan 2nd 3:27 PM
Just a question in relation to DUNE and Foundation. Can anyone name another detailed, several-volume series that compares to these two? For me, an example would be the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Has anyone read it?

Ending Dream 23
User ID: 9391453 Jan 2nd 5:23 PM
I have one that is not as good as Dune; prob'ly not as good as Foundation, but none the less very close. :: The Book of the New Sun -it be a trilogy writen by Gene Wolf >>>

Margo
User ID: 8924643 Jan 3rd 1:27 PM
Or Arthur C. Clarke's Rendesvous With Rama, Rama II, The Garden Of Rama and Rama Revealed (only these and in this order). Great stuff!

IFremen
User ID: 0310794 Jan 14th 4:45 AM
In reply to Pete. I agree (and am surprised you mentioned) that Hyperion is another great several-volume series. I also liked the Rama books. Another really good series is Greg Bear's Eon, Eternity and Legacy. It's great hard core science fiction. Also, I haven't read all of the series but Orson Scott Card's "Enders Game" is a great novel (I'll soon start the sequal after I finish reading Chapterhouse Dune for the 3rd time--that'll make all 8 dune books in a row!)

IFremen
User ID: 0310794 Jan 14th 4:57 AM
I forgot to mention that I highly recommend the Dan Simmons Hyperion series. It's like several genres of science fiction rolled into one novel through the device of 6 or 7 different characters (whose personal stories reflect the different genres, i.e. historical sf, cyber sf, time-travel sf, etc.) on a mission to destroy an amazing and horrifying doomsday monster/being. The characterization is vaguely reminiscent of Herbert. Frank, that is.

Kaifu
User ID: 9892733 Jan 22nd 1:40 PM
One interesting but forgiveable (?) change in the prequel novels...

It seems as if Leto I's is actually his grandfather. I have possession of a Dune Encyclopedia and the table of lineage and rulership of House Atreides... Leto I father was actually Minotaurus...

Other interesting notes... his father, Minotaurus, was killed in a bullfight just as D:HA describes, but during the bullfight, Leto lept from his seat and killed the bull that slew his father... a symbol of his ascension to the position of Duke.

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Jeremiah Gowdy User ID: 2059234	May 5th 11:12 AM I recently purchaced a copy of Dune: House Atreides. I simply wanted to point out that there are several contradictions between this new book written by Brian Herbert and the original series. When one writes a prequil, one must make sure that the elements introduced in the story do not contradict with the rest of the story already established. (1) In House Atredies, the story shows that Jessica's mother is the Reverend Mother Heilen Gaius Moheim, but in Children of Dune, Leto is quoted saying to his grandmother Jessica, "Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen". I would doubt in the extreme that one could contradict what Leto said at that point, because he has all of the memories of his family for millennia, male and female. He could certainly pick out who his great grandmother is. (2) In House Atredies, the Harkonnens aquire a No-Ship and No-Globe. These are extremely hard to swallow. First off, Heretics of Dune states outright, the Harkonnen No-Globe was contructed by the House Harkonnen during the rein of the God Emperor. Second, the idea that a No-Ship was built, almost 4,000 years or more before the Ixians and the Guild worked together for years to block the power of prescience, without any assistance from the Guild for testing. If there _were_ assistance from the Guild, the Guild would _know_ that No-Globes could be built, 4,000 years before they ever decided to get down and build one. Remember, the Guild claims to know the contents of every shipment they carry. (3) In House Atreides, the Guild ship "falls out of foldspace" when Duke Leto activates his shields. The process of folding space is supposed to be instant, or nearly instant. Surely not enough time for anyone to act out the entire battle with the No-Ship and the Bene Telixu. I don't mean to totally detract from the story. It was a good novel, and a well written and executed story, but being a hard core Sci-Fi series, you have to pay special attention to detail otherwise you have a bunch of nerds like me poking holes in your story :)
Jeremiah Gowdy User ID: 2059234	May 5th 11:19 AM That last post was sent as an email to the dunenovel.com group. What's funny to me is, after I wrote this and posted it, I read several other people's posts where they point out other flaws. I believe people in the position to write such a book, should use people who are rabid sci-fi fans (like me) to assist them in keeping the story "true" to it's history. Just like the errors in Star Trek that occur all the time. They have so many people obsessed with it, it would be easy to tap their knowlege.
Jack User ID: 0038914	May 9th 2:40 PM The no ship in HA: a one off created by a renegade Ixian (or something), the only one who knew of its workings, who then dies. This isn't an error.
Fedaykin User ID: 9321503	May 11th 5:12 PM my mistake. it's just stupidity and completely unbelievable then.
Liam Cognet User ID: 9551723	Jun 14th 11:32 PM The flaws pointed out above have been explained by Brian Herbers on his web site (www.dunenovels.com), however, the flaw pointed out in relation to Jessica's mother has not been given an explanation by Brian Herbert. This flaw(pointed out by Jeremiah Gowdy) should be sent to Brian or Kevin for an explanation. If any one finds an explanation could they please let me know. -Dark Shogun cognet@corplink.com.au
daneel olivaw User ID: 3946674	Jun 28th 10:56 AM yeah, well what about the bene tleilax???they do not reveal their true religious fervor before the end of the rule of the tyran...they are not studpid grey gnomes...they rival in complexity with all the rest of the dune universe... they had a kwisatz haderach to toy with... well... even though i do not like HA, it was satisfying to see that DUNE continues...but BH respect what was established in the DUNE cycle...not destroy it all with his lame ass books...
Fred Nevets User ID: 9189423	Jun 29th 5:04 PM That's another good point. In HA the Bene Tleilax's religious beliefs are common knowledge, yet in the later Dune novels they are a closely guarded secret. Sometimes I wonder if Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson even read the novels, or if they just rented the Dune movie and skimmed through the books.
daneel olivaw User ID: 9370173	Jul 3rd 10:50 AM it almost seems like heresy to write a book like HA associated with the genius of frank herbert...nevertheless, ill take what i can... reading a new dune book is fantastatic, even if it isnt that great. i wonder how you can only read such books once? i read my dune and foundation books at least 2 times a year. and each time, i discover new things...our tastes change over the years, but these books remain constant...something that didnt seem important 5 years ago, can be important now...
Margo User ID: 1397584	Sep 23rd 3:46 PM I agree wholeheartedly with you daneel! Dune and Foundation are my Bibles as far as leisure reading's concerned. BTW is there any Foundation- related site or message board? I think there's just as much to discuss within Asimov's books as there is in Dune...
True User ID: 9043333	Dec 1st 3:25 PM I'm currently reading House Atreides for the first time and I was really struck by the fact that the authors seem far more influenced by the _movie_ than the books. I enjoy the movie, but there are elements in it that are not supported by the book Dune that seem to keep popping up in the narrative. Someone earlier said that they thought the writers just watched the movie. I tend to agree there is way too much influence from the movie in the books. (For instance at the end of the book Dune, Paul confronts two Guild bankers and recognizes them as navigators when the eye lens of one is removed. In House Atreides, the navigators are described as being identical to the creatures in the movie. These are not creatures that could be disguised by simple contact lenses.)
Kaiser User ID: 9635043	Dec 2nd 2:02 PM 1.) About the Guild Navigators, in Dune Messiah they are revealed as fish like with fins etc. (Edric is my evidence). I dont think this is a flaw but maybe even a slight discrepancy in the original trilogy. 2.) Gaius Helen Mohiam's REAL name IS Tanidia Nerus, it was changed to GHM when she joined the Bene Gesserit, a fine point but a point nontheless. 3.)It was a Richesian inventor who helped the harkonnens in the construction of the No-Globe :) All the other contradictions i agree with. Flame away!
JtOct User ID: 9656233	Dec 30th 12:56 AM I read House Atreides and thought it was good. However, I purchased all of the other Dune novels ( which I haven't read yet) expecting more of the same. How are the writing styles different between Frank Herbert and the authors of the prequel trilogy? Anyone?
Ending Dream 23	Dec 30th 3:07 PM More of the same... well I'd say you'll get something like that. The new books do try to emulate the style of the originals so, you should be very satisfied. ->Originals better -coughs-
Margo	Dec 31st 5:22 AM Read the originals first. If you've begun the prequels, put them away and forget them for now. Believe me, its better this way, for the story's good as well as yours. I can understand your notion of "more of the same" if you begin your life with Dune by reading BH and KJA's works. BUT. These were written later, despite their name. Come to think of it, is there any prequel out there that is actually a good read prior to its original series? BH and KJAs' writing style differs largely, but you'll have to read it to believe it ;-)
Pete User ID: 9537533	Jan 2nd 3:27 PM Just a question in relation to DUNE and Foundation. Can anyone name another detailed, several-volume series that compares to these two? For me, an example would be the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Has anyone read it?
Ending Dream 23 User ID: 9391453	Jan 2nd 5:23 PM I have one that is not as good as Dune; prob'ly not as good as Foundation, but none the less very close. :: The Book of the New Sun -it be a trilogy writen by Gene Wolf >>>
Margo User ID: 8924643	Jan 3rd 1:27 PM Or Arthur C. Clarke's Rendesvous With Rama, Rama II, The Garden Of Rama and Rama Revealed (only these and in this order). Great stuff!
IFremen User ID: 0310794	Jan 14th 4:45 AM In reply to Pete. I agree (and am surprised you mentioned) that Hyperion is another great several-volume series. I also liked the Rama books. Another really good series is Greg Bear's Eon, Eternity and Legacy. It's great hard core science fiction. Also, I haven't read all of the series but Orson Scott Card's "Enders Game" is a great novel (I'll soon start the sequal after I finish reading Chapterhouse Dune for the 3rd time--that'll make all 8 dune books in a row!)
IFremen User ID: 0310794	Jan 14th 4:57 AM I forgot to mention that I highly recommend the Dan Simmons Hyperion series. It's like several genres of science fiction rolled into one novel through the device of 6 or 7 different characters (whose personal stories reflect the different genres, i.e. historical sf, cyber sf, time-travel sf, etc.) on a mission to destroy an amazing and horrifying doomsday monster/being. The characterization is vaguely reminiscent of Herbert. Frank, that is.
Kaifu User ID: 9892733	Jan 22nd 1:40 PM One interesting but forgiveable (?) change in the prequel novels... It seems as if Leto I's is actually his grandfather. I have possession of a Dune Encyclopedia and the table of lineage and rulership of House Atreides... Leto I father was actually Minotaurus... Other interesting notes... his father, Minotaurus, was killed in a bullfight just as D:HA describes, but during the bullfight, Leto lept from his seat and killed the bull that slew his father... a symbol of his ascension to the position of Duke.