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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: House Atreides / IRAQ

Justinian	Nov 9th 11:13 PM A beginning is a very delicate time. Know then that it is the year 10191. The known universe is ruled by the Padishah Emperor Shaddam (Saddam)IV, my father. In this time, the most precious substance in the universe is the spice melange. (crude OIL) The spice extends life, the spice expands consciousness, the spice is vital to space travel.(Iraqi Oil) The Spacing Guild and its navigators, who the spice has mutated over four thousand years, use the orange spice gas which gives them the ability to fold space. That is travel to any part of the universe without moving. Oh yes, I forgot to tell you, the spice exists on only one planet in the entire universe : a desolate, dry planet with vast deserts.(yeah Iraq) Hidden away within the rocks of these deserts are a people known as Fremen who have long held a prophecy, that a man would come, a messiah, who would lead them to true freedom. The planet is Arrakis,(Iraq) also known as... DUNE. ================================================= Well folks am i the only one to see the connection with the Mid East here ? The whole book is full of references to the Mid East , or at least Mid Eastern inspired mixed with a Euro flavor. Considering the book was written in the 60's i feel that much of what is written is infact a premonition of the future... an abstract yet accurate fortelling... dreams turned into reality , think.
D Idaho	Nov 12th 2:16 PM Yes I thought something like that when I read about the water dictadure in GEoD
Freakzilla User ID: 9356783	Nov 17th 6:00 AM Whoever can create a clean engine to replace the internal combustion engine will be a very wealthy man. Analogous to creating an Ixian Navigation Machine. I'd love to see all the Arab oil become worthless.
Moneo	Nov 17th 7:49 AM The problem is, technology for such a clean engine exists for more than a decade. It's just that people with the power (oil and motor industries etc..) don't really want to move on to another technology while it's so nice to have their customers dependent of oil.
Freakzilla User ID: 9356783	Nov 17th 10:33 AM Hydrolic Despotism. ;)
Robin H. User ID: 8032783	Nov 17th 3:16 PM I heard the rumor that the motor companies are hiding the plans for a clean energy motor numerous times. I have not yet, however, seen any proof or even indication for it. Many German car companies are developing Hydrogen-Cars and similar concepts. Sadly, all the ideas discussed so far did have a need for energy the could not be satisfied without fossil fuels or nuclear power. There are some interesting concept of using natural ressources like rape oil and the like. It would be a real pleasure to see those concepts come to fruition someday. Concerning Iraq. Dune being set in an islamic-style environment has been discussed many times. Similarly, the metaphors of water and the Spice for Oil (as a vital but limited ressource) are plain to see for everyone. One should not try to draw to many conclusions from comparing the novels with the real life situation. We once had a very long topic that consisted mostly of people trying to find the "right" Dune-analogies to the powers involved in the Mid East. I think such direct comparisons will mostly be fruitless. I do think, however, that there is a good chance of understanding a muslim´s point of view by reading about the Fremen.
bnewbs User ID: 9342693	Oct 27th 2:26 PM Dune is to iraq as caladan to spain, geidi prime to russia, and Ix to industrial china with its preserved landscape
Seruna Kanus User ID: 0554384	Feb 7th 6:16 PM Bush Sr. is to Leto, Jr. is to Paul, or Leto II. -Seru King
Sardaukar One	Feb 18th 2:37 AM Bush is a gibbering rock ape! The man shouldn't be in charge of a shrimp stall, let alone the most powerful country in the world. Unfortunately, we don't have any Sardaukar to let loose upon Iraq.
Freakzilla	Feb 20th 10:39 AM Speaking as a US Army veteran believe me when I say we could stop opposition in Iraq like a bug. The problem is that we'd have to kill a few civilians to do it and the bleeding heart liberals won't let us. It's hard to fight a war with your hands tied behind your back. Carpet bomb one city, then let's see who wants to be a terrorist.
Robin H. User ID: 0701364	Feb 21st 2:21 AM I completely disagree with that statement. It is besides the point. The US is not fighting a war. It´s trying to stop one from fully emerging. The faction in Iraq are not so keen anymore on killing US troops (not that they would stop that), but on causing unrest and fighting against each other for power. It is factually wrong. To answer you question who wants to be a terrorist: Every brother, sister, wife, husband, mother, father of one of the innocents you propose to murder. Even now, a sizeable proportion of the strikes in Iraq are commited by suicide bombers. I don´t see any possibility to scare them away. Mortal danger obviously won´t work. It is morally wrong. Freeing and protecting the Iraqi civilians is about the only legitmiation the US have left for their war that cost the lives of countless innocents and set a dangerous precedent that will influence future politics in a very pernicious way for the years to come. Deliberately killing innocents to set an example is morally reprehensible to me. The kind of "America first"-thinking that leads to such suggestions has inflicted much woe and earned the US many enemies (e.g. Iran). To disregard the lives of civilians is giving up what little is left of the moral high ground. What else did the 9/11-bomber do? Finally, I think your slur against liberals is uncalled for. Allthough I´m not American, my own political position is much closer to their agenda than to that of the GOP. If the US had listened to some of these people instead of the lies told by the president and his cronies, it might not have lost the lives of many brave soldiers, spilled the blood of innocents, lost credibility, worsened the situation of the Iraqi people, created more enemies and lost the flexibility (military-wise) and public support needed to make a credible threat against Iran in a war that was doomed to be a failure from the very beginning. Truly, my heart is bleeding to see the misery inflicted on the world by the current administration of the US. And it bleeds even more to see all that perpetrated by America, the country that freed my home from the Nazis, gave us democracy and paid the bill in blood, not for its own interest but because it was the right thing to do.
Freakzilla	Feb 21st 2:14 PM We are at war with Terrorism and it's global. The war is coming regardless of what we do, it just hasn't yet become full scale. How easily we forget 9/11. There are no innocents. For decades people in Iran have been chanting "death to America" after religous services. Iran has used their own children to clear mine fields in their war with Iraq. We are not going to "win their hearts and minds". They don't simply want us out of their affairs, they want us dead. To them we are evil. I don't care what people who want me dead think of my morals. I say we end all foreign aid to the rest of the world, let them feed themselves. Nobody appreciates it anyway. We spend billions of our hard earned tax dollars on people in other countries and get called selfish. That's rich. Other nations don't give a damn about what happens to American's, why shouldn't we think "America first"? Do you really think we are in Iraq to liberate them? There's dictators all over the world, why Iraq? Look on a map at what country lies between Iraq and Afghanistan and our true mission should become clear. The liberals in this country are turning us into a nation of whinning welfare addicts who are affraid to do what must be done because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither. Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.
Sardaukar One	Feb 21st 10:32 PM Unfortunately, the only way for the US to impose itself militarily would be to start finding every Sunni and killing them. Not saying that I agree with that, but the fact is thats probably the only way to get them to start behaving themselves. And of course, there is no gaurantee that would work. Or would not have any averse reactions. Such as the whole country rising against the US forces there. But I do agree with Freak! We should cut them off from all sorts of aid. F*** em! F*** em all! And a good way to start would be to start weening ourselves off gasoline. If the Brazilians can have their cars run on oil produced from corn or whatever the hell it is, then why can't we do that? Oh yeah, the big oil companies that contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to lobbyists and in political contributions. Still, that would be a good start. Another alternatively good start would be to impeach that gibbering chimp George W Bush. That man is the worst person we could have as President right now. What an imbecile! And Freak's right about another thing. The war is coming. And in war, better them dead than us. If things keep on going the way they are, I don't think it can play out any other way. Ask yourself this. What if 9/11 had been a nuke parked outside the White House instead of a plane into the Trade Center building etc? And how far away are we from them parking a nuke outside the White House or in some other City? Whats the plan of response then? The plan would be to wipe the middle east off the face of the planet.
Robin H. User ID: 0701364	Feb 24th 5:20 AM @Freakzilla: One cannot be at war with Terrorism. Terrorism is a strategy (a despicable one). Saying you are at war with it is like saying you are at war with blitzkrieg. It gets even more ridiculous because what you propose is exactly what you claim to be at war with. Bombing innocents. What else did the 9/11-bastards do? Resorting to the same strategy is like pissing on the graves of those that died on that very day you want us to remember. Why are there no innocents in your view? Were the victims of 9/11 not innocent? Were the children that died to American bombs not innocent? Was the 14-year old girl that was raped and shot (along with her family) by American soldiers not innocent? You have kids yourself. What if a relative of this 14-year old girl had the power to rape and kill your kids? Would he be justified in this just because he has been wronged by another member of the US armed forces? You say that you don’t care about what those that want you dead think about your morals. But what about those that consider you friends? What about yourself? I can see that you don’t care about the likes of Ajmadinejad. But is that reason enough to abandon any morality at all? Is that really what you want the US to be like? The Iranians may have chanted “Death to America”, but America actually brought them death. Poison gas delivered to Saddam Hussein to use in his war against them. That he used it to gas some Kurds did not really impair diplomatic relations. Is it so hard to understand why they think the US are evil? Are they right? Hell, no. No country is evil. Every country is made up of people. Some good, some evil and most somewhere in between. If you believe, you are so much different from the Iranians, you should reconsider. “Death to America” and “Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.” Sounds very similar to me. You say no one cares about America. Well, I disagree. We sent our soldiers to fight alongside those of the US in Afghanistan. Many other countries did. Most of the world stood on the side of America when it came to hunting those responsible for 9/11. It was when Bush and his administration started to have paranoid fantasies about ties between Iraq and Al Quaida and about WMDs that the much of the world turned its back, rightfully and sensibly so. If the strategist had wanted to have a go at Iran, they could have easily done so without creating that mess that is Iraq today. In fact, if the American forces were not occupied with Iraq and American credibility sullied by their lies about WMDs, I believe Iran would have never been as bold as they have been in recent months and years. And what is it with Iran anyways? Yes, oppressive regime, many fundies, despicable leader. But nothing to do with 9/11. Most of those terrorists came from –guess where- Saudi Arabia, nominally a close ally of the US. Possibly because the US are very much allied to the corrupt royal family that is not all that popular amongst the population. You talk about stopping foreign help. If the US also stopped supporting murderous dictators whenever it suits their goals, I bet the net effect would be quite positive. You should realize that although I don’t think their actions are in any way acceptable, the motivation of many US-haters does have reasons. It will not get better by killing more innocents and not caring. I don’t know what your beef with the liberals is, but –once again- listening to them would have saved the lives of many US soldiers, Iraqi civilians and prevented a whole lot of misery. I also don’t know what liberty you are talking about. The liberty to bomb whoever you want? I don’t think that is what Franklin had in mind. If you want to have a look at what it means to give up liberty for security, look no further than the Patriot Act. @Sardaukar One: ”Better them dead them us”. Depends on your definition, I guess. But don’t you think it might be better to have something like “better the guilty dead than the innocent”? Achievable? Probably not. But wouldn’t it be an ideal to aspire to? Isn’t that part of the American way? To try every day to be the best you can possibly be.
Sardaukar One	Feb 27th 2:15 AM I agree with you wholeheartedly Robin. But its way beyond that now. We are a lot closer to "them or us" than we are to "lets just get along." There is so much blame to go around its absurd. People seem to be more interested in who did what than in how to fix the many problems. On a lighter note, Lithuania is considering reducing their military in Iraq. They have 53 soldiers there and to date they have killed 20 terrorists and 6 Vampires. Way to go Lithuania. You will be missed!
Robin H. User ID: 0701364	Mar 3rd 10:07 AM I don´t see how the US should be "beyond that". I don´t think there is any point where one should abandon one´s morals. But more importantly, mindless violence won´t help. The more the US hurts innocent civilians, the more people will be willing to hurt the US. As much as we all wish there would be an easy solution where you just kill all the "evildoers", this mindset has been proven not to work in recent years. A change of mind is terribly neccessary.
Sardaukar One	Mar 15th 2:04 PM These are a people who strap bombs to teenagers and send them out to blow up others. Innocent civilians? And exactly what are they innocent of? A great way to go would be to go would be to go with enviromental friendly industries. Solar power, wind power etc. Making gas out of corn juice or whatever it is. I saw a show the other day about one of those hybrid cars. Over 100 miles per gallon. Then we won't need the middle east. And we can let them stew in their own juices. Which in itself is not that appealing. But its better than the alternative. Of course, the big corporations will never let this happen. Certainly not while a Republican is president.

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