Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: House Atreides / House Atreus

NicBo Jan 11th 3:46 PM
After reading through Frank Herbert's books more than once, I realized that Paul and Leto II both mention how their family can be traced back to Atreus. I didn't really look into it until recently. Attending my mythology in the 20th Century course, I realized House Atreus is actually the House from which Agamemnon comes from. The entire house goes back to Tantalus, who is punished in Hades for serving Pelops (son of Zeus) to the gods. Likewise, Agamemnon's father, Atreus, serves the sons of his wife and his brother to his brother, Thyestes. Agamemnon is Menelaus' brother, and went to war with Troy, if you can remember.Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter in order to go to Troy. Agamemnon was killed by his wife and his brother when he returned (as his brother and his wife were having an affair while he was absent for 10 years in battle).

For more info on House Atreus: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/houseofatreus/a/houseofatreus.htm

So, our Atreides come from a family that's actually known for a curse. They constantly defied the gods and committed atrocities that are even unfathomable by today's standards.
I haven't read the prequel novels, so I'm not certain if this comes up. Does it? Also, has anyone looked into this correlation? Is there maybe a correlation to Greek Mythology with the Harkonens or Corrinos?

Seruna Kanus Dec 1st 10:00 PM
Recal that in the book there was a play regarding this. Also, in the Legends series it tell about General Agammemnon Atreides. The Titan general traced his blood line to house Atreus and changed his name to Agammemnon Atreides.

Rob
User ID: 9014973 Dec 1st 10:43 PM
Yes, HA does mention this (ALOT!) and so does the Butlerian Jihad series. I didn't much think about the Corrinos, but as for the Harkonnens, well, the name 'Vladimir' is a Russian name meaning 'well-known ruler' If you think about it, this novel was written during the cold war. Also, the names Feyd-Rautha,Glossu, and Piter sound faintly Russian to me (Though they are't actual names) If anything, I believe that the Harkonnens were supposed to be Russian descendants.

Bogus de Vries
User ID: 9342693 Dec 2nd 2:32 PM
Piter is a real name. It is Dutch for "Peter." "De Vries" is also a Dutch last name.

Rob
User ID: 9014973 Dec 2nd 3:44 PM
Really? I caouldn't find it on my favorite 'name' site, but that does make sense.

I wonder who else's name's aren't made up....

Seruna Kanus Dec 2nd 11:52 PM
Corrino stemmed from the Battle of Corrin. The first emperor was a Butler, and had Harkonnen blood as well.

There are many names that stem from real life. Erasmus was a humanist around the time of Martin Luther who fallowed religion.

Freakzilla
User ID: 2268254 Mar 7th 10:30 AM
FH never mentions where the name Corrino originated or who the first emperor was. The only emperor besides Shaddam IV who is ever mentioned is Elrood IX, Shaddam's father.

By the way, Alia speaks with Agammemnon briefly in Other Memory in Children of Dune. This would indicate that the story of the Atreides being related to House Atreus is true.

If I remember my one and forever only reading of the pre's, The Titan of the same name chose that name as his internet screen name.

Seruna Kanus Mar 8th 11:35 AM
It is mentioned in the chronicles that the First Emperor took the name Corrino after the battle of Corrin.

If I recall, Agammemnon took the screen name after learning of his haratige. All the Titans used their Handles when they became Titans.

Also, regarding the curse. All I can say for any Atreides. Beware those you love. Leto's mom betrayed Paulus, Jessica was thought to betray her duke, she also gave the world chaos. But not as much as Chani, who gave the universe a god in exchange for her husbands love.

-Seru King

shinnok
User ID: 8924643 Mar 8th 1:14 PM
"Leto's mom betrayed Paulus"

Can you elaborate or give me a page where I can find this?

Freakzilla
User ID: 2268254 Mar 8th 2:58 PM
I apologize Seruna, you are correct. It's mentioned in the "Terminology" appendix.The Battle of Corrin is mentioned four times in all of FH's original six books.

Three times in Dune:

"There'll be much bloodshed soon," she said. "The Harkonnens won't rest
until they're dead or my Duke destroyed. The Baron cannot forget that Leto is a
cousin of the royal blood--no matter what the distance--while the Harkonnen
titles came out of the CHOAM pocketbook. But the poison in him, deep in his
mind, is the knowledge that an Atreides had a Harkonnen banished for cowardice
after, the Battle of Corrin."

"VLADIMIR HARKONNEN (10,110-10,193)
Commonly referred to as Baron Harkonnen, his title is officially Siridar
(planetary governor) Baron. Vladimir Harkonnen is the direct-line male
descendant of the Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen who was banished for cowardice after
the Battle of Corrin."

"CORRIN, BATTLE OF: the space battle from which the Imperial House Corrino took
its name. The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G. settled the
ascendancy of the ruling House from Salusa Secundus."

And it's mentioned as a time reference in Chapterhouse: Dune

"The masking system (the crystal continued) did not succeed with us. We have
our own well-recorded Jewish heritage and a fund of Other Memory to tell us
reasons for secrecy. We did not disturb the situation until I, Mother Superior
during and after the battle of Corrin (Very old, indeed!), saw that our
Sisterhood had need of a secret society, a group responsive to our requests for
assistance."

As I said before, FH didn't say who the first emperor was, only that the House from Salusa Secundus ascended to the throne.

As to Agammemnon's name, I'll not debate it's origin. I'll leave that to someone more knowledgable of the prequels or who cares. However, I didn't say it didn't have anything to do with being a decendant of House Atreus, just that it was his internet handle.

However, it's clearly said that the Harkonnens aren't nobility as the Atreides are, their titles were gained through financial manuvering.

Therefore, the first Corrino could not have shared Harkonnen blood.

Seruna Kanus Mar 8th 6:52 PM
It is too bad that FH is not here to clarify any of these issues. But I like to think that HH was a noble family before the Jihad. They just lost their nobility after the Battle of Corrin. It can be understood that they had to regain power through financial means. Then again many noble families in a Feudal environment ascend taht way.

-Seru King

Sardaukar One Jun 22nd 1:48 AM
The point that is being made is that the Harkonnens could not be related to the first of the Corrino Emperor's if I am not mistaken.

If or not the Harkonnens were "noble" is another matter.

Seruna Kanus Jun 22nd 2:24 PM
I'm starting to understand. Though there is no evidence saying other wise. BH seems to do a good job at "covering" plot holes.

-Seru Kng

shinnok
User ID: 0492334 Jun 22nd 3:35 PM
.. Vladimir Harkonnen is the direct-line male
descendant of the Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen who was banished for cowardice after
the Battle of Corrin."

Is it possible that the Harkonnens were Sarduaker?

Seruna Kanus Jun 22nd 10:36 PM
That could be. What I'd like to know is how the Sarduakar were so feared before SS became a wasteland.

-Seru King

Freakzilla
User ID: 0192094 Jun 23rd 8:09 AM
That doesn't mean Abulurd was a noble.

It is said in _Dune_ that House Harkonnen aquired it's title through economic channels, FH even goes as far to point out that this is a major difference between House Atreides and House Harkonnen:

"There'll be much bloodshed soon," she said. "The Harkonnens won't rest until they're dead or my Duke destroyed. The Baron cannot forget that Leto is a cousin of the royal blood--no matter what the distance--while the Harkonnen titles came out of the CHOAM pocketbook. But the poison in him, deep in his mind, is the knowledge that an Atreides had a Harkonnen banished for cowardice
after, the Battle of Corrin."

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NicBo	Jan 11th 3:46 PM After reading through Frank Herbert's books more than once, I realized that Paul and Leto II both mention how their family can be traced back to Atreus. I didn't really look into it until recently. Attending my mythology in the 20th Century course, I realized House Atreus is actually the House from which Agamemnon comes from. The entire house goes back to Tantalus, who is punished in Hades for serving Pelops (son of Zeus) to the gods. Likewise, Agamemnon's father, Atreus, serves the sons of his wife and his brother to his brother, Thyestes. Agamemnon is Menelaus' brother, and went to war with Troy, if you can remember.Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter in order to go to Troy. Agamemnon was killed by his wife and his brother when he returned (as his brother and his wife were having an affair while he was absent for 10 years in battle). For more info on House Atreus: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/houseofatreus/a/houseofatreus.htm So, our Atreides come from a family that's actually known for a curse. They constantly defied the gods and committed atrocities that are even unfathomable by today's standards. I haven't read the prequel novels, so I'm not certain if this comes up. Does it? Also, has anyone looked into this correlation? Is there maybe a correlation to Greek Mythology with the Harkonens or Corrinos?
Seruna Kanus	Dec 1st 10:00 PM Recal that in the book there was a play regarding this. Also, in the Legends series it tell about General Agammemnon Atreides. The Titan general traced his blood line to house Atreus and changed his name to Agammemnon Atreides.
Rob User ID: 9014973	Dec 1st 10:43 PM Yes, HA does mention this (ALOT!) and so does the Butlerian Jihad series. I didn't much think about the Corrinos, but as for the Harkonnens, well, the name 'Vladimir' is a Russian name meaning 'well-known ruler' If you think about it, this novel was written during the cold war. Also, the names Feyd-Rautha,Glossu, and Piter sound faintly Russian to me (Though they are't actual names) If anything, I believe that the Harkonnens were supposed to be Russian descendants.
Bogus de Vries User ID: 9342693	Dec 2nd 2:32 PM Piter is a real name. It is Dutch for "Peter." "De Vries" is also a Dutch last name.
Rob User ID: 9014973	Dec 2nd 3:44 PM Really? I caouldn't find it on my favorite 'name' site, but that does make sense. I wonder who else's name's aren't made up....
Seruna Kanus	Dec 2nd 11:52 PM Corrino stemmed from the Battle of Corrin. The first emperor was a Butler, and had Harkonnen blood as well. There are many names that stem from real life. Erasmus was a humanist around the time of Martin Luther who fallowed religion.
Freakzilla User ID: 2268254	Mar 7th 10:30 AM FH never mentions where the name Corrino originated or who the first emperor was. The only emperor besides Shaddam IV who is ever mentioned is Elrood IX, Shaddam's father. By the way, Alia speaks with Agammemnon briefly in Other Memory in Children of Dune. This would indicate that the story of the Atreides being related to House Atreus is true. If I remember my one and forever only reading of the pre's, The Titan of the same name chose that name as his internet screen name.
Seruna Kanus	Mar 8th 11:35 AM It is mentioned in the chronicles that the First Emperor took the name Corrino after the battle of Corrin. If I recall, Agammemnon took the screen name after learning of his haratige. All the Titans used their Handles when they became Titans. Also, regarding the curse. All I can say for any Atreides. Beware those you love. Leto's mom betrayed Paulus, Jessica was thought to betray her duke, she also gave the world chaos. But not as much as Chani, who gave the universe a god in exchange for her husbands love. -Seru King
shinnok User ID: 8924643	Mar 8th 1:14 PM "Leto's mom betrayed Paulus" Can you elaborate or give me a page where I can find this?
Freakzilla User ID: 2268254	Mar 8th 2:58 PM I apologize Seruna, you are correct. It's mentioned in the "Terminology" appendix.The Battle of Corrin is mentioned four times in all of FH's original six books. Three times in Dune: "There'll be much bloodshed soon," she said. "The Harkonnens won't rest until they're dead or my Duke destroyed. The Baron cannot forget that Leto is a cousin of the royal blood--no matter what the distance--while the Harkonnen titles came out of the CHOAM pocketbook. But the poison in him, deep in his mind, is the knowledge that an Atreides had a Harkonnen banished for cowardice after, the Battle of Corrin." "VLADIMIR HARKONNEN (10,110-10,193) Commonly referred to as Baron Harkonnen, his title is officially Siridar (planetary governor) Baron. Vladimir Harkonnen is the direct-line male descendant of the Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen who was banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin." "CORRIN, BATTLE OF: the space battle from which the Imperial House Corrino took its name. The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G. settled the ascendancy of the ruling House from Salusa Secundus." And it's mentioned as a time reference in Chapterhouse: Dune "The masking system (the crystal continued) did not succeed with us. We have our own well-recorded Jewish heritage and a fund of Other Memory to tell us reasons for secrecy. We did not disturb the situation until I, Mother Superior during and after the battle of Corrin (Very old, indeed!), saw that our Sisterhood had need of a secret society, a group responsive to our requests for assistance." As I said before, FH didn't say who the first emperor was, only that the House from Salusa Secundus ascended to the throne. As to Agammemnon's name, I'll not debate it's origin. I'll leave that to someone more knowledgable of the prequels or who cares. However, I didn't say it didn't have anything to do with being a decendant of House Atreus, just that it was his internet handle. However, it's clearly said that the Harkonnens aren't nobility as the Atreides are, their titles were gained through financial manuvering. Therefore, the first Corrino could not have shared Harkonnen blood.
Seruna Kanus	Mar 8th 6:52 PM It is too bad that FH is not here to clarify any of these issues. But I like to think that HH was a noble family before the Jihad. They just lost their nobility after the Battle of Corrin. It can be understood that they had to regain power through financial means. Then again many noble families in a Feudal environment ascend taht way. -Seru King
Sardaukar One	Jun 22nd 1:48 AM The point that is being made is that the Harkonnens could not be related to the first of the Corrino Emperor's if I am not mistaken. If or not the Harkonnens were "noble" is another matter.
Seruna Kanus	Jun 22nd 2:24 PM I'm starting to understand. Though there is no evidence saying other wise. BH seems to do a good job at "covering" plot holes. -Seru Kng
shinnok User ID: 0492334	Jun 22nd 3:35 PM .. Vladimir Harkonnen is the direct-line male descendant of the Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen who was banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin." Is it possible that the Harkonnens were Sarduaker?
Seruna Kanus	Jun 22nd 10:36 PM That could be. What I'd like to know is how the Sarduakar were so feared before SS became a wasteland. -Seru King
Freakzilla User ID: 0192094	Jun 23rd 8:09 AM That doesn't mean Abulurd was a noble. It is said in _Dune_ that House Harkonnen aquired it's title through economic channels, FH even goes as far to point out that this is a major difference between House Atreides and House Harkonnen: "There'll be much bloodshed soon," she said. "The Harkonnens won't rest until they're dead or my Duke destroyed. The Baron cannot forget that Leto is a cousin of the royal blood--no matter what the distance--while the Harkonnen titles came out of the CHOAM pocketbook. But the poison in him, deep in his mind, is the knowledge that an Atreides had a Harkonnen banished for cowardice after, the Battle of Corrin."