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Dune House Atreides / Suggested Books / Sardaukar

Next 20 Messages

NIK
User ID: 1376304 Jul 18th 9:40 PM
just a thought.

As far as new books go, if you have read about the background of the Sardaukar (the society of selusa secundus etc) -from the encyclopaedia, what an interesting premise to base a story on?

Feyd Ralpha
User ID: 7956543 Sep 20th 9:08 PM
The Sardaukar were second only to the Fremen as fierce fighters due to the toughness of their planet(which I am sure you already know). For that reason, it would be interesting to see how the House Corrino prequel depicts this planet. It might be interesting to have someone put together a compendium of fan based fiction (if someone hasn't already done so).

Margo
User ID: 1397584 Sep 21st 5:39 AM
Dune fanfiction? I've been waiting ages to hear that! Do you have some ideas or maybe even a work in progress? I seem to recall a site called Dune Revenant which was an on-line exploration of a possible book7 AND THE STORYLINE ROCKED!!! Anyone care to impart what happened to it?
I don't have the web capacity to put up such a compendium, but if there are enough fans out there with an idea, anything is possible!

HOUSE OF WALLACH
User ID: 1815634 Nov 7th 1:36 PM
MARGO

I remember that website! What a good website it was. Does anyone know where that website has gone! I can only remember after the Dunenovels website went up, that website disappeared.

Margo
User ID: 1397584 Nov 7th 3:08 PM
I don't think there was any infringement trouble, they had all the necessary disclaimers to begin with. The story was so good, I doubt any writer will come close to that man's ideas. Or maybe there were more of them? Anyways, they did one %^## of a job and I don't think they deserve to be ousted from the net like that :-)

Man-O-Kin
User ID: 0554384 Nov 13th 10:23 PM
The Sadukar are excellent fighters and the Fremen are even better, but they are still not the top of the fighting chart. The Ginaz SwordMasters are far by the best. The Fremen and Sardukar are much tougher, by it was the Ginaz who had the ultimate training and skill, they are the best fighters. Duncan Idaho fought off a half dozen Sardukar and survived for quite some time before being cut down.
The Bene Gesserit were also good, probably fourth on the charts.

Levenbrech
User ID: 8890073 Feb 16th 11:34 PM
At the height of their day the Sardaukar were probably equal to the next-best of the Fremen, and the Sardaukar Corps had more "enlisted" :-) than the Fremen had warriors. The Fremen and Muad'Dib beat the Sardaukar using Shai Hulud ;-) to rout them. If the Sardaukar had been deployed properly and at their heigth, they would have wiped out the Fremen, but not without heavy losses... :-) The Ginaz Sword masters are not an army as such, more like an elite school(as I understand it).

Turok
User ID: 2324014 Sep 28th 2:55 AM

Agree with Levenbrech-even his name is Sardaukar. If I were to be born in the Dune age, Sardaukar is one of my options. Who would resist to be an Imperial elite soldiers, especially like me and Levenbrech? Yes, the Fremen were better warriors, maybe, but Sardaukar were the best army in the universe of Dune. Routed in Arrakeen, yes, but they were tough soldiers and if they lived in our age, they would have wiped out an entire population.

Saruch Dec 24th 2:45 PM
Here is a link to a site that has good fan fiction
http://groups.msn.com/TheLandsraad/_whatsnew.msnw

Sardaukar One Dec 24th 7:30 PM
Being good at duels does not always parlay into being a good soldier.
A dueling sword really would not be applicable on a battlefield. When you duel, you need some space to fight. That would not be the case on a battlefield more often than not. You would be hindered in the use of a rapier by your own troops for one.
During the Roman Empire, the Romans used short swords, because it was far more efficient at close quarter fighting. They could get off a lot of stabs for every one swing of one of those long swords that the Gauls and Germans liked to use.
Due to the fact that the Gauls and Germans used such weapons, they had to fight in loose formations(so they had room to use their weapons etc), and consequently were at a disadvantage due to the much tighter formations used by the Romans. Most of the time anyway.
Can't help myself here, but if the Dune glossary is anything to go by, I fail to see how the Fremen can even come close to the Sardaukar in their prime. The only way is by using sandworms.
Otherwise this is not even close.

Merry Xmas

shinnok
User ID: 1035294 Dec 25th 11:25 AM
Duncan Idaho killed 19 Sarduaker before falling while protecting Jessica and Paul's retreat in Dune 1 (See CoD, comments by the late Emperor's nephew). If there would've been just half a dozen, he would've survived.
The Ginaz Swordmasters originally trained mercenaries from the Ginaz population that were superior to the Sarduaker and the Freman, but the practice seemed to have stopped During Maudib'd time (probably to maintain power structure in Landsraad). Part of the reason Duncan was sent by Leto I as ambassador to the Freman was because they would respect his fighting skills.
In GEoD, Leto II called Duncan the Aristocrat of the Sword.
In Dune, the late Emperor noted how his Sarduaker retreated from a group of Freman comprised of woman, children and old men.
Although the Freman were superior warriors, the whole concept of the Sarduaker killers was one of those things that made FH the Master that he was.

shinnok
User ID: 1035294 Dec 25th 11:30 AM
As for fan fiction, please read Dune 7 Advent, available here:

http://www.usul.net/fandom/marco/frames.html

It maybe even better than Dune Revenant, available here:

http://www.geocities.com/dune_revenant/dunefanfictionbook.pdf

Sardaukar One Dec 25th 9:34 PM
The Butlerian Jihad is not canon. At least not to me. In the BJ, the Ginaz could have trained cows for all I care. I am only referencing the originals.
The Sardaukar in the time of Shaddam were at their lowest. Hence their defeat.
As good as a tenth level Ginaz sm. Did not Paul reach level ten and Alia level eleven on the training machine? Presumably that can be compared to the Ginaz swordmasters.
As good at in-fighting as any Bene Gesserit adept. Adept means expert.
I fail to see how the Fremen could even come close to the Sardaukar in their prime.
At the time of Shaddam, the Sardaukar were far from their prime. I would imagine their peak was probaly at the beginning of the reign of Corrino Emperors. Thats usually when there is most to fight for. Usually.
Again, using a dueling sword in battles fought between large formations of infantry is not going to be prudent. Its why its a dueling weapon.
For duels between two combatants. Its not to say that someone cannot use a rapier in battle, but in the way the big battles seemed to be fought it does not seem to be expedient to me.
I would imagine thats why most of the soldiers used blades and stunners. Or so it would seem.
You will not have room to use a rapier when you have your fellow soldiers either side of you.
As for Duncan Idaho, it was impressive. From the description of the fight though, it seems to me that his shield helped him a great deal.
Deflecting all those weapons, including a stunner.
I seem to remember the Harkonnens and the Sardaukar not using shields due to them using lasguns. I could be wrong about that.
But its apparent they had no shields.
Makes you wonder just how hard it would have to be to kill an opponent with a shield on. I mean, he is not just going to stand still and allow the slow blade to penetrate the shield.

Cool website by the way.

shinnok
User ID: 1035294 Dec 26th 10:05 AM
Sarduaker, I appreciate your insight. Please consider these four points...

First, although the Sarduaker were strongly conditioned to obey and protect the Emperor through a high standard of living (during break from training) as reward for loyalty, you must take into account the strong fanatical element shared by the Freman. When the Sarduaker attacked dressed as Harkonnen, the Freman were protecting their homes. This makes them doubly dangerous. (Remember Thufir Hawat's thoughts on Fremen tactics after witnessing a suicide attack on a Sarduaker convoy during Shaddam's first invasion shortly after Leto I arrival on Dune?)

Second, any Freman that died for Maudib was an instant martyr.

Third, after Shaddam's surrender, the Sarduaker, the only hope of stopping the Freman, were probably mostly taken out of the picture. This means the Jihad was probably mostly Freman versus Landsraad troopers and mercenaries.

Fourth, by the time of Leto II, the Sarduaker were
so strong that Leto II wanted or needed them to serve once again as Imperial guard.

Finally, the fact that Idaho had a shield didn't take away from his accomplishment (I will review the scene and comeback to you) at least in the Corrino Nephew's eyes. Nineteen Sarduaker! Remmebr, the reason they saved Duncan's cells was to have him train Sarduaker.

Everyone have a Happy New Year!

Sardaukar One Dec 27th 4:52 PM
I hear what you are saying, but I merely point out that the Sardaukar in their prime, as described in the Dune glossary would seem to me to be far superior to Fremen.
I fail to see how Fremen could match up to them on a one for one basis.
The Sardaukar in Shaddam's reign were clearly a shadow of their former selves if the Dune glossary is anything to go by.
Paul says somewhere in Dune that the Sardaukar have forgotten how to fight a guerilla war. Just before they attack the Emperor. This certainly suggests that they were not what they once were.
Saying that, other than the Fremen, they were clearly the best fighters.
Of course, I am not sure what difference it would have made going up against sand worms. I don't think it would make any difference in this regards how good the Sardaukar were. I am not sure how you are supposed to kill sandworms with blades and stunners.
Otherwise, fanatacism rarely ever overcomes training in a straight up fight.
When you have been at the wheel for as long as the Sardaukar have, then you are going to nod off.
It happened to the Romans, and other military powers. So why not the Sarduakar?
The enemies that defeated the Romans at the end of their Empire would most likely not have defeated the Roman armies that habitated the Roman Empire in the beginning. And so it has gone with many Empires/Kingdoms/Powers.

Sardaukar One Dec 27th 5:03 PM
That Duncan had a shield does not take away from his accomplishement of killing 19 Sardaukar.
But it certainly explains his accomplishment.

I was actually reading that excert again. The time it takes from Duncan defending the door to Paul and Jessica getting to the escape exit does not seem like it would take more than half a minute tops. Because when they reach the escape exit, thats when the Sardaukar start breaking the door down.
If Duncan killed 19 Sardaukar, then it would seem to me that they would have had a lot longer to make their escape. Either that or he killed the Sardaukar at a Teg like speed.
Just an irrelevant observation.

Happy New Year.

Shinnok
User ID: 1035294 Dec 27th 10:36 PM
Well, the observation was made in Children of Dune by a Corrino that had access to Sarduaker records that stated that 19 Sarduaker died during the raid on Paul and Jessica's hideout. These casualtys were directy attributed, by the Sarduaker themselves, to Duncan Idaho. Please note that although Duncan was mortally injured, the scene never depicts him as actaully dieing, or even falling (although it does make it obvious that he's beyond help.) Duncan may have survived for a few minutes (protected by his shield) after Paul's escape.

Now, the soldiers Duncan killed may not have been the best the Sarduaker corps had to offer (Remember that Sarduaker bodygaurd that hauled the Emperor into his ship and "prepared to die as part of his shield" near the end of Dune I? No doubt he took down quite a few Freman.) There must have been quite a few in their corps that could challenge the likes of Duncan, Gurney, and Hawat.

Stil's buddy Oct 5th 2:56 PM
I dont think they could kill Gurney, unless they used 5 more Sardaukar, otherwise, he would have won. Remember that Gurney, not Duncan, is the most 1337 swordsman in the Atreides service. The 1st Ghola even said: "He could best me 3 times out of 5." But, if you use the most recent Idaho ghola, he could problably kill 26 Sardaukar, taking in fact that the Face Dancer attempt on his life was hindered by his speed and agility. That is, he's so fast that if you played paintball with him 5 on 1, he could pwn all of you! Long live DUNCAN!

Robin H.
User ID: 8353323 Oct 6th 3:05 AM
Oh my god. Please, please, no netspeak.

shinnok
User ID: 9878643 Oct 6th 3:19 PM

Duncan was most likely patrolling outside thier safehouse and heard/saw the Sarduakar coming. He surprised them somehow and killed several. He then retreated down narrow hallways, helped by hi sshield, while the remaining Sarduakar followed. He made his stand outside the room where he knew Jessica and Paul were. That's where he was injured, and that's where he fell.

The number 19 was derived from Sarduakar records and is the main reason why a Duncan Ghola was created in the first place. It was given to us by no less than a Corrino Prince. Its cannon.

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NIK User ID: 1376304	Jul 18th 9:40 PM just a thought. As far as new books go, if you have read about the background of the Sardaukar (the society of selusa secundus etc) -from the encyclopaedia, what an interesting premise to base a story on?
Feyd Ralpha User ID: 7956543	Sep 20th 9:08 PM The Sardaukar were second only to the Fremen as fierce fighters due to the toughness of their planet(which I am sure you already know). For that reason, it would be interesting to see how the House Corrino prequel depicts this planet. It might be interesting to have someone put together a compendium of fan based fiction (if someone hasn't already done so).
Margo User ID: 1397584	Sep 21st 5:39 AM Dune fanfiction? I've been waiting ages to hear that! Do you have some ideas or maybe even a work in progress? I seem to recall a site called Dune Revenant which was an on-line exploration of a possible book7 AND THE STORYLINE ROCKED!!! Anyone care to impart what happened to it? I don't have the web capacity to put up such a compendium, but if there are enough fans out there with an idea, anything is possible!
HOUSE OF WALLACH User ID: 1815634	Nov 7th 1:36 PM MARGO I remember that website! What a good website it was. Does anyone know where that website has gone! I can only remember after the Dunenovels website went up, that website disappeared.
Margo User ID: 1397584	Nov 7th 3:08 PM I don't think there was any infringement trouble, they had all the necessary disclaimers to begin with. The story was so good, I doubt any writer will come close to that man's ideas. Or maybe there were more of them? Anyways, they did one %^## of a job and I don't think they deserve to be ousted from the net like that :-)
Man-O-Kin User ID: 0554384	Nov 13th 10:23 PM The Sadukar are excellent fighters and the Fremen are even better, but they are still not the top of the fighting chart. The Ginaz SwordMasters are far by the best. The Fremen and Sardukar are much tougher, by it was the Ginaz who had the ultimate training and skill, they are the best fighters. Duncan Idaho fought off a half dozen Sardukar and survived for quite some time before being cut down. The Bene Gesserit were also good, probably fourth on the charts.
Levenbrech User ID: 8890073	Feb 16th 11:34 PM At the height of their day the Sardaukar were probably equal to the next-best of the Fremen, and the Sardaukar Corps had more "enlisted" :-) than the Fremen had warriors. The Fremen and Muad'Dib beat the Sardaukar using Shai Hulud ;-) to rout them. If the Sardaukar had been deployed properly and at their heigth, they would have wiped out the Fremen, but not without heavy losses... :-) The Ginaz Sword masters are not an army as such, more like an elite school(as I understand it).
Turok User ID: 2324014	Sep 28th 2:55 AM Agree with Levenbrech-even his name is Sardaukar. If I were to be born in the Dune age, Sardaukar is one of my options. Who would resist to be an Imperial elite soldiers, especially like me and Levenbrech? Yes, the Fremen were better warriors, maybe, but Sardaukar were the best army in the universe of Dune. Routed in Arrakeen, yes, but they were tough soldiers and if they lived in our age, they would have wiped out an entire population.
Saruch	Dec 24th 2:45 PM Here is a link to a site that has good fan fiction http://groups.msn.com/TheLandsraad/_whatsnew.msnw
Sardaukar One	Dec 24th 7:30 PM Being good at duels does not always parlay into being a good soldier. A dueling sword really would not be applicable on a battlefield. When you duel, you need some space to fight. That would not be the case on a battlefield more often than not. You would be hindered in the use of a rapier by your own troops for one. During the Roman Empire, the Romans used short swords, because it was far more efficient at close quarter fighting. They could get off a lot of stabs for every one swing of one of those long swords that the Gauls and Germans liked to use. Due to the fact that the Gauls and Germans used such weapons, they had to fight in loose formations(so they had room to use their weapons etc), and consequently were at a disadvantage due to the much tighter formations used by the Romans. Most of the time anyway. Can't help myself here, but if the Dune glossary is anything to go by, I fail to see how the Fremen can even come close to the Sardaukar in their prime. The only way is by using sandworms. Otherwise this is not even close. Merry Xmas
shinnok User ID: 1035294	Dec 25th 11:25 AM Duncan Idaho killed 19 Sarduaker before falling while protecting Jessica and Paul's retreat in Dune 1 (See CoD, comments by the late Emperor's nephew). If there would've been just half a dozen, he would've survived. The Ginaz Swordmasters originally trained mercenaries from the Ginaz population that were superior to the Sarduaker and the Freman, but the practice seemed to have stopped During Maudib'd time (probably to maintain power structure in Landsraad). Part of the reason Duncan was sent by Leto I as ambassador to the Freman was because they would respect his fighting skills. In GEoD, Leto II called Duncan the Aristocrat of the Sword. In Dune, the late Emperor noted how his Sarduaker retreated from a group of Freman comprised of woman, children and old men. Although the Freman were superior warriors, the whole concept of the Sarduaker killers was one of those things that made FH the Master that he was.
shinnok User ID: 1035294	Dec 25th 11:30 AM As for fan fiction, please read Dune 7 Advent, available here: http://www.usul.net/fandom/marco/frames.html It maybe even better than Dune Revenant, available here: http://www.geocities.com/dune_revenant/dunefanfictionbook.pdf
Sardaukar One	Dec 25th 9:34 PM The Butlerian Jihad is not canon. At least not to me. In the BJ, the Ginaz could have trained cows for all I care. I am only referencing the originals. The Sardaukar in the time of Shaddam were at their lowest. Hence their defeat. As good as a tenth level Ginaz sm. Did not Paul reach level ten and Alia level eleven on the training machine? Presumably that can be compared to the Ginaz swordmasters. As good at in-fighting as any Bene Gesserit adept. Adept means expert. I fail to see how the Fremen could even come close to the Sardaukar in their prime. At the time of Shaddam, the Sardaukar were far from their prime. I would imagine their peak was probaly at the beginning of the reign of Corrino Emperors. Thats usually when there is most to fight for. Usually. Again, using a dueling sword in battles fought between large formations of infantry is not going to be prudent. Its why its a dueling weapon. For duels between two combatants. Its not to say that someone cannot use a rapier in battle, but in the way the big battles seemed to be fought it does not seem to be expedient to me. I would imagine thats why most of the soldiers used blades and stunners. Or so it would seem. You will not have room to use a rapier when you have your fellow soldiers either side of you. As for Duncan Idaho, it was impressive. From the description of the fight though, it seems to me that his shield helped him a great deal. Deflecting all those weapons, including a stunner. I seem to remember the Harkonnens and the Sardaukar not using shields due to them using lasguns. I could be wrong about that. But its apparent they had no shields. Makes you wonder just how hard it would have to be to kill an opponent with a shield on. I mean, he is not just going to stand still and allow the slow blade to penetrate the shield. Cool website by the way.
shinnok User ID: 1035294	Dec 26th 10:05 AM Sarduaker, I appreciate your insight. Please consider these four points... First, although the Sarduaker were strongly conditioned to obey and protect the Emperor through a high standard of living (during break from training) as reward for loyalty, you must take into account the strong fanatical element shared by the Freman. When the Sarduaker attacked dressed as Harkonnen, the Freman were protecting their homes. This makes them doubly dangerous. (Remember Thufir Hawat's thoughts on Fremen tactics after witnessing a suicide attack on a Sarduaker convoy during Shaddam's first invasion shortly after Leto I arrival on Dune?) Second, any Freman that died for Maudib was an instant martyr. Third, after Shaddam's surrender, the Sarduaker, the only hope of stopping the Freman, were probably mostly taken out of the picture. This means the Jihad was probably mostly Freman versus Landsraad troopers and mercenaries. Fourth, by the time of Leto II, the Sarduaker were so strong that Leto II wanted or needed them to serve once again as Imperial guard. Finally, the fact that Idaho had a shield didn't take away from his accomplishment (I will review the scene and comeback to you) at least in the Corrino Nephew's eyes. Nineteen Sarduaker! Remmebr, the reason they saved Duncan's cells was to have him train Sarduaker. Everyone have a Happy New Year!
Sardaukar One	Dec 27th 4:52 PM I hear what you are saying, but I merely point out that the Sardaukar in their prime, as described in the Dune glossary would seem to me to be far superior to Fremen. I fail to see how Fremen could match up to them on a one for one basis. The Sardaukar in Shaddam's reign were clearly a shadow of their former selves if the Dune glossary is anything to go by. Paul says somewhere in Dune that the Sardaukar have forgotten how to fight a guerilla war. Just before they attack the Emperor. This certainly suggests that they were not what they once were. Saying that, other than the Fremen, they were clearly the best fighters. Of course, I am not sure what difference it would have made going up against sand worms. I don't think it would make any difference in this regards how good the Sardaukar were. I am not sure how you are supposed to kill sandworms with blades and stunners. Otherwise, fanatacism rarely ever overcomes training in a straight up fight. When you have been at the wheel for as long as the Sardaukar have, then you are going to nod off. It happened to the Romans, and other military powers. So why not the Sarduakar? The enemies that defeated the Romans at the end of their Empire would most likely not have defeated the Roman armies that habitated the Roman Empire in the beginning. And so it has gone with many Empires/Kingdoms/Powers.
Sardaukar One	Dec 27th 5:03 PM That Duncan had a shield does not take away from his accomplishement of killing 19 Sardaukar. But it certainly explains his accomplishment. I was actually reading that excert again. The time it takes from Duncan defending the door to Paul and Jessica getting to the escape exit does not seem like it would take more than half a minute tops. Because when they reach the escape exit, thats when the Sardaukar start breaking the door down. If Duncan killed 19 Sardaukar, then it would seem to me that they would have had a lot longer to make their escape. Either that or he killed the Sardaukar at a Teg like speed. Just an irrelevant observation. Happy New Year.
Shinnok User ID: 1035294	Dec 27th 10:36 PM Well, the observation was made in Children of Dune by a Corrino that had access to Sarduaker records that stated that 19 Sarduaker died during the raid on Paul and Jessica's hideout. These casualtys were directy attributed, by the Sarduaker themselves, to Duncan Idaho. Please note that although Duncan was mortally injured, the scene never depicts him as actaully dieing, or even falling (although it does make it obvious that he's beyond help.) Duncan may have survived for a few minutes (protected by his shield) after Paul's escape. Now, the soldiers Duncan killed may not have been the best the Sarduaker corps had to offer (Remember that Sarduaker bodygaurd that hauled the Emperor into his ship and "prepared to die as part of his shield" near the end of Dune I? No doubt he took down quite a few Freman.) There must have been quite a few in their corps that could challenge the likes of Duncan, Gurney, and Hawat.
Stil's buddy	Oct 5th 2:56 PM I dont think they could kill Gurney, unless they used 5 more Sardaukar, otherwise, he would have won. Remember that Gurney, not Duncan, is the most 1337 swordsman in the Atreides service. The 1st Ghola even said: "He could best me 3 times out of 5." But, if you use the most recent Idaho ghola, he could problably kill 26 Sardaukar, taking in fact that the Face Dancer attempt on his life was hindered by his speed and agility. That is, he's so fast that if you played paintball with him 5 on 1, he could pwn all of you! Long live DUNCAN!
Robin H. User ID: 8353323	Oct 6th 3:05 AM Oh my god. Please, please, no netspeak.
shinnok User ID: 9878643	Oct 6th 3:19 PM Duncan was most likely patrolling outside thier safehouse and heard/saw the Sarduakar coming. He surprised them somehow and killed several. He then retreated down narrow hallways, helped by hi sshield, while the remaining Sarduakar followed. He made his stand outside the room where he knew Jessica and Paul were. That's where he was injured, and that's where he fell. The number 19 was derived from Sarduakar records and is the main reason why a Duncan Ghola was created in the first place. It was given to us by no less than a Corrino Prince. Its cannon.