Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: The Butlerian Jihad / Agamemnon

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Lenoxxx Feb 8th 12:38 PM
Hey in the original dune book house atreides says somewhere they could trace their lineage back to "agamemnon" then in BJ agamemnon is the cymek leader that spawned Vorian Atreides. Did FH have this planned out or were BA and young Herbert trying to just pull something out of their ass?

Lenoxxx

MelangeAddict Jul 23rd 9:25 AM
Good question Guildsman, I've been wondering the same thing. How can they be so sure, even if it were from a Reverend Mothers' Other Memories, it is concievable that the Reverend Mother could be lying for her own (read: the sisterhood's) inscrutible purposes. I would say Muad'Dib or the Tyrant found out, but the Atreides ancestry was known long before the time of Paul Atreides, it seems. Breeding records? No way. We can't trace lineage back to ancient Greece even now.

Ideas?

wormboy
User ID: 9314413 Oct 16th 11:14 PM
Actually, in the Dune Encylcopedia (well the pdf version downloaded from the internet) it says on page 84

"Bry's work mentions one Agamemnon d'Artreides, Governer of the Brunig district, who was assasinated around 175 BG while defending the use of computers before the rioting masses".

I know that the DE is just a publicaton by a fan, but there is definitely a similarity between BH's books and the DE on this particular issue.

Incidently, on the same page the DE mentions the desertion of Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen at the Battle of Corrin.

Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing.

zephyros
User ID: 9426023 Jan 6th 6:42 PM
Actually, MelangeAddict, anthropologists have veryfied that the modern Greeks are in fact descendants of the ancient Greeks, maintaining "98% racial continuity". Individual bloodlines to historical figures in the Greek past, however, are hazy.

Diesel May 26th 8:00 AM
According to Legends of Dune.. Agamemnon from BJ, Vorian Atreides father, apparently traced his roots back to house Atreus before he became the Cymek General (during his lifetime as human in the Old Empire)..
Vorian Atreides is naturally aware of this since he grew up with his father, the Cymek General, on old Earth and studied his fathers memoirs carefully.

Weither these memoirs were accurate is another matter.

Vorian
User ID: 9223993 Jun 18th 9:49 PM
Or Hrethgir

Vorian
User ID: 9223993 Jun 18th 9:54 PM
That damned Abulurd !!!!

Menelaus Jun 23rd 9:25 AM
The name Atreides is actually a variant of the word 'Atreus', simply denoting a descendant of Atreus, these people being known as ' the Atreides'. A similar version of this would be a Roman family name, lets say 'Julius'. Collectively, all members of this family would be known as ' the Julii'.
As Agamemnon the Cymek considered himself a descendant of the mythological Atreus, it appears that he choose to name his son Atreides to reflect this

Robin H.
Moderator
User ID: 8032783 Jun 29th 12:22 AM
I will not allow any discrimination, be it against homosexuals or anyone else, on this board.

I have therefor removed the offensive post and also those, that answer to it, as they look weird without context.

Freakzilla
User ID: 9719083 Jun 29th 11:54 AM
"Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing."

I hadn't thought of that, FH and Dr. McNeily were buddies, he may have let him use his background notes.

That would explain the similarities between the prequels and the DE.

Wormboy Jun 29th 5:40 PM
Good literature always has an extensive backstory to it. Stories set in the 'real world' often have real history as their backstory, but sci fi/fantasy has to be written by the author.

Due to the epic nature of Dune, and the fact that so much is left unsaid in the original novels, I suspect that Frank would probably have written an 'outline' history of events before the BJ, during it, and for a lot of the time between the BJ and the original series. For a taste of it, all you have to do is read the Apendix to the original novel.

Freakzilla
User ID: 9719083 Jun 30th 6:57 PM
I'm often amazed by Dune fans who haven't read those appenices, very good stuff. I don't think I read them until the 2nd or 3rd time through.

In an interview with KJA I read that BH found a box of notes in his garage (not the outline) that was character scetches and back history for Dune, just after writing the first House book.

I can't totally see how FH may have let McNeily go through that same box.

Boy would I like to.

Sardaukar One Jul 4th 10:03 AM
I don't recall reading that the Atreides were related to Agamemnon anywhere in the original books.
If I am wrong, please tell me where.
Otherwise, I would go with the pulling it out of their arse theory.
It certainly would be no different to anything else in the BJ.

Freakzilla
User ID: 9719083 Jul 6th 12:03 PM
In Children of Dune, Alia is being tormented by Other Memory:

"She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me!
But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help."
"No . . . no," she whispered.
Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand
audience!"
"No . . . no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain."

In a conversation between Ghanima and Irulan:

"Very well! I'll keep trying to dissuade you. This course is madness." And Irulan wondered why she let Ghanima become so irritating. A Bene Gesserit didn't need to be irritated at anything. She said: "I'm concerned by the extreme danger
to you. You know that. Ghani, Ghani . . . you're Paul's daughter. How can you -- "
"Because I'm his daughter," Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon and we know what's in our blood. Never forget that, childless wife of my father. We Atreides have a bloody history and we're not through with the blood."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"
"How sparse your vaunted Bene Gesserit education proves itself," Ghanima said. "I keep forgetting that you foreshorten history. But my memories go back to . . ." She broke off; best not to arouse those shades from their fragile sleep.
"Whatever you remember," Irulan said, "you must know how dangerous this course is to --"

If you want a more direct quote, here's Leto II in God Emperor of Dune:

"I WAS born Leto Atreides II more than three thousand standard years ago, measuring from the moment when I cause these words to be printed. My father was Paul Muad'Dib. My mother was his Fremen consort, Chani. My maternal grandmother was Faroula, a noted herbalist among the Fremen. My paternal grandmother was Jessica, a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding scheme in their search for a male who could share the powers of the Sisterhood's Reverend Mothers. My maternal grandfather was Liet-Kynes, the planetologist who organized the ecological transformation of Arrakis. My paternal grandfather was Leto Atreides, descendant of the House of Atreus and tracing his ancestry directly back to the Greek original."

Sardaukar One Jul 6th 11:37 PM
Thanks Freakzilla.
So we can take it that the Atreides are descended from the Greek King Agamemnon, presumably the same Agamemnon who sacked Troy.
That a far cry from a brain in a canister inside a robot t-rex!

Freakzilla
User ID: 9719083 Jul 7th 10:36 AM
Yeah, I think so too.

In the Legend series, I think the General in the story got the name from using it as his internet name, and chose it because he knew of his Greek ancestry.

That's the only way I can make sense of it and remain sane.

Sardaukar One Jul 9th 9:57 PM
If memory serves me correctly, the house of Atreus is the house that Agamemnon(the Greek King from the siege of Troy) hailed from.
If I am correct you can chalk up yet another balls up from BH and KJA.

Sardaukar One Jul 16th 4:15 AM
Actually, if you pick up a copy of Homer's the Illiad, it refers to Agamemnon as being from the house of Atreus/Atreides.
In fact, both Agamemnon and his brother are refered to as the Atreides in the Illiad.
The lack of research is mind blowing.

To honestly think that a lime flavored slushie inside of a giant robot big bird can be confused with Agamemnon, the greek king who sacked Troy.

Thufir
User ID: 1557854 Jul 18th 8:55 AM
They didn't get it confused. The Agamemnon in prequels took his name from the original Agamemnon. He claimed to have traced his heritage back to the ancient Greeks.

Xavier Jul 26th 7:53 AM
This might sound strange, but could the underlying reason for Letos transformation be homosexuality?

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Lenoxxx	Feb 8th 12:38 PM Hey in the original dune book house atreides says somewhere they could trace their lineage back to "agamemnon" then in BJ agamemnon is the cymek leader that spawned Vorian Atreides. Did FH have this planned out or were BA and young Herbert trying to just pull something out of their ass? Lenoxxx
MelangeAddict	Jul 23rd 9:25 AM Good question Guildsman, I've been wondering the same thing. How can they be so sure, even if it were from a Reverend Mothers' Other Memories, it is concievable that the Reverend Mother could be lying for her own (read: the sisterhood's) inscrutible purposes. I would say Muad'Dib or the Tyrant found out, but the Atreides ancestry was known long before the time of Paul Atreides, it seems. Breeding records? No way. We can't trace lineage back to ancient Greece even now. Ideas?
wormboy User ID: 9314413	Oct 16th 11:14 PM Actually, in the Dune Encylcopedia (well the pdf version downloaded from the internet) it says on page 84 "Bry's work mentions one Agamemnon d'Artreides, Governer of the Brunig district, who was assasinated around 175 BG while defending the use of computers before the rioting masses". I know that the DE is just a publicaton by a fan, but there is definitely a similarity between BH's books and the DE on this particular issue. Incidently, on the same page the DE mentions the desertion of Bashar Abulurd Harkonnen at the Battle of Corrin. Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing.
zephyros User ID: 9426023	Jan 6th 6:42 PM Actually, MelangeAddict, anthropologists have veryfied that the modern Greeks are in fact descendants of the ancient Greeks, maintaining "98% racial continuity". Individual bloodlines to historical figures in the Greek past, however, are hazy.
Diesel	May 26th 8:00 AM According to Legends of Dune.. Agamemnon from BJ, Vorian Atreides father, apparently traced his roots back to house Atreus before he became the Cymek General (during his lifetime as human in the Old Empire).. Vorian Atreides is naturally aware of this since he grew up with his father, the Cymek General, on old Earth and studied his fathers memoirs carefully. Weither these memoirs were accurate is another matter.
Vorian User ID: 9223993	Jun 18th 9:49 PM Or Hrethgir
Vorian User ID: 9223993	Jun 18th 9:54 PM That damned Abulurd !!!!
Menelaus	Jun 23rd 9:25 AM The name Atreides is actually a variant of the word 'Atreus', simply denoting a descendant of Atreus, these people being known as ' the Atreides'. A similar version of this would be a Roman family name, lets say 'Julius'. Collectively, all members of this family would be known as ' the Julii'. As Agamemnon the Cymek considered himself a descendant of the mythological Atreus, it appears that he choose to name his son Atreides to reflect this
Robin H. Moderator User ID: 8032783	Jun 29th 12:22 AM I will not allow any discrimination, be it against homosexuals or anyone else, on this board. I have therefor removed the offensive post and also those, that answer to it, as they look weird without context.
Freakzilla User ID: 9719083	Jun 29th 11:54 AM "Given the above, I suspect that BH and Dr McNelly both accessed the same sets of FHs background notes in their writing." I hadn't thought of that, FH and Dr. McNeily were buddies, he may have let him use his background notes. That would explain the similarities between the prequels and the DE.
Wormboy	Jun 29th 5:40 PM Good literature always has an extensive backstory to it. Stories set in the 'real world' often have real history as their backstory, but sci fi/fantasy has to be written by the author. Due to the epic nature of Dune, and the fact that so much is left unsaid in the original novels, I suspect that Frank would probably have written an 'outline' history of events before the BJ, during it, and for a lot of the time between the BJ and the original series. For a taste of it, all you have to do is read the Apendix to the original novel.
Freakzilla User ID: 9719083	Jun 30th 6:57 PM I'm often amazed by Dune fans who haven't read those appenices, very good stuff. I don't think I read them until the 2nd or 3rd time through. In an interview with KJA I read that BH found a box of notes in his garage (not the outline) that was character scetches and back history for Dune, just after writing the first House book. I can't totally see how FH may have let McNeily go through that same box. Boy would I like to.
Sardaukar One	Jul 4th 10:03 AM I don't recall reading that the Atreides were related to Agamemnon anywhere in the original books. If I am wrong, please tell me where. Otherwise, I would go with the pulling it out of their arse theory. It certainly would be no different to anything else in the BJ.
Freakzilla User ID: 9719083	Jul 6th 12:03 PM In Children of Dune, Alia is being tormented by Other Memory: "She covered her ears with her hands, thinking: I'm not prescient! The trance doesn't work for me! But the voice persisted: "It might work, if you had help." "No . . . no," she whispered. Other voices wove around her mind: "I, Agamemnon, your ancestor, demand audience!" "No . . . no. "She pressed her hands against her ears until the flesh answered her with pain." In a conversation between Ghanima and Irulan: "Very well! I'll keep trying to dissuade you. This course is madness." And Irulan wondered why she let Ghanima become so irritating. A Bene Gesserit didn't need to be irritated at anything. She said: "I'm concerned by the extreme danger to you. You know that. Ghani, Ghani . . . you're Paul's daughter. How can you -- " "Because I'm his daughter," Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon and we know what's in our blood. Never forget that, childless wife of my father. We Atreides have a bloody history and we're not through with the blood." Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?" "How sparse your vaunted Bene Gesserit education proves itself," Ghanima said. "I keep forgetting that you foreshorten history. But my memories go back to . . ." She broke off; best not to arouse those shades from their fragile sleep. "Whatever you remember," Irulan said, "you must know how dangerous this course is to --" If you want a more direct quote, here's Leto II in God Emperor of Dune: "I WAS born Leto Atreides II more than three thousand standard years ago, measuring from the moment when I cause these words to be printed. My father was Paul Muad'Dib. My mother was his Fremen consort, Chani. My maternal grandmother was Faroula, a noted herbalist among the Fremen. My paternal grandmother was Jessica, a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding scheme in their search for a male who could share the powers of the Sisterhood's Reverend Mothers. My maternal grandfather was Liet-Kynes, the planetologist who organized the ecological transformation of Arrakis. My paternal grandfather was Leto Atreides, descendant of the House of Atreus and tracing his ancestry directly back to the Greek original."
Sardaukar One	Jul 6th 11:37 PM Thanks Freakzilla. So we can take it that the Atreides are descended from the Greek King Agamemnon, presumably the same Agamemnon who sacked Troy. That a far cry from a brain in a canister inside a robot t-rex!
Freakzilla User ID: 9719083	Jul 7th 10:36 AM Yeah, I think so too. In the Legend series, I think the General in the story got the name from using it as his internet name, and chose it because he knew of his Greek ancestry. That's the only way I can make sense of it and remain sane.
Sardaukar One	Jul 9th 9:57 PM If memory serves me correctly, the house of Atreus is the house that Agamemnon(the Greek King from the siege of Troy) hailed from. If I am correct you can chalk up yet another balls up from BH and KJA.
Sardaukar One	Jul 16th 4:15 AM Actually, if you pick up a copy of Homer's the Illiad, it refers to Agamemnon as being from the house of Atreus/Atreides. In fact, both Agamemnon and his brother are refered to as the Atreides in the Illiad. The lack of research is mind blowing. To honestly think that a lime flavored slushie inside of a giant robot big bird can be confused with Agamemnon, the greek king who sacked Troy.
Thufir User ID: 1557854	Jul 18th 8:55 AM They didn't get it confused. The Agamemnon in prequels took his name from the original Agamemnon. He claimed to have traced his heritage back to the ancient Greeks.
Xavier	Jul 26th 7:53 AM This might sound strange, but could the underlying reason for Letos transformation be homosexuality?