Dune House Atreides

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Dune House Atreides / Comments on Dune: The Machine Crusade / Machine Crusade/ Clone Wars

Lenoxxx
User ID: 0101764 Oct 3rd 8:01 PM
Hey just finished reading the Machine Crusade, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the authors did a good job weaving together some of the Dune back story, Guild/ Bene Geserit/ Caladan etc. It seems like alot of the folks on here are just giving the book a fashionable "bash"

The only thing that I can think of os the backlash of some fans to the Star Wars prequels featuring the "Clone Wars" - aka "they dont match the originals/ quality isnt there etc."

I enjoyed those films for what they were, a fun attempt to explore the back history of some films we enjoyed- remember Ben Kenobi referencing those "Clone Wars"?

The Two newest Dune books are exploring that same type of Vein- the Butlerian Jihad. Hey the story must be told, why not enjoy it. I have enjoyed the sub story of the Titans myself!

ANyway like I tell my Star Wars friends- if you hate the new films, pretend they dont exist.

Here's hoping BH & KA write a short story telling of the last days of the "Beast" Rabban!

Lenoxxx

DH Danmark
User ID: 0018434 Oct 4th 4:59 AM
As I have said before I'm glad that they are writing new books. And my problem is ot that they are written in a different style than Frank did.
My problem is the quality of the two writers.
They make a lot of errors that could be so easily removed. E.g. repeating themselves over and over again, and so on (I have said it too much before, so read all my other complaints elsewhere on the forum.

I normally dont mind the discrepancies in the new dune stories, especielly not in the Legends series, history can be rewritten a lot of times through 10000 years. But otherwise I dont like all the storylines which seems to have no reason, and is only making discrepancies. E.g. the storyline aboit IX in the prequels. It seems unlikely that the atreides and IX should have been so close just af few years before Dune Classic, and we hear nothing about them in these. And the storyline is really not leading anywhere (the only important thing it leads to, is that Dr. Wellington comes to caladan) Discrepencies like that I really dont like. It seems they are doing everything they can to write big books, as if the quality of a book where measured in pages. They could IMO easily have removed some hundred pages from each of there books, and the overall quality could then have been much better.

The last thing which I dont like about the new books is something which I guess never will change in the books by Brian and KEvin. When I read the books I feel they are so plane and simple. There really is nothing else than the story in the books, no messages or themes. Of course this is not totally true, eg. in the Legends the part about how the humans have slaves just like the machines a theme imo, and there is also a few others, but it is still very thin.
Not like the Dune Classics, with themes about ecology, religion, idolizing leaders and so on. That is probably the thing I miss most.

dogsolitude_uk Oct 5th 12:07 PM
I think DH has also summed up my opinions on the matter too - I completely agree on all those points.

I felt as if I had learnt something after reading each of FH's books, and there was a tremendous sense of discovery, not just about the Duniverse, but also about our own world.

I really love that in a book. Having just a story rarely keeps my interest for long. Still, I'll continue to read the prequels anyway because I quite enjoy them, but in a different way to FH's work.

To give an analogy - I like Mars bars (and Toblerones... Well, most chocolate in fact), and I also like dining out in good restaurants. I like both, but for different reasons. In fact, I'm currently nibbling on some Bahlsen Choco-Liebniz which are absolutely gorgeous and possibly unique in that I know of no other biscuit named after a mathematician...

Dog;)

DH Danmark Oct 5th 2:15 PM
I have read some more in the book now, (page 534 so far), and I am starting to enjoy it a little more, except for a single chapter which is without comparison (IMO) the worst chapter Brian and Kevin have ever written. Because I dont want to spoil things, I'll just say it is page 391-397 in the english edition. Some of the stuff happening in this chapter is against anything else in Dune, I bet the next will be green aliens and ghosts.
I will just try to forget that the chapter even exists, but it is quite sad it should come up just when the book had become much better.
And I'm begging that Brian and Kevin never will write anything that stupid again.

dogsolitude_uk Oct 6th 1:02 PM
I made a comment obliquely referring to that particular travesty of fiction a while back...

And I agree, I think it can be safely skipped. As can most of the bits when Serena Butler does the Lady Diana bit with wounded soldiers.

But yeh, it does improve.

By the way, stop reading at the end of page 596 in the UK edition. Or thereabouts. The rest makes a pretty good intro for a 'next novel' rather than an end of the current one.

Dog;)

Lenoxxx
User ID: 0101764 Oct 6th 4:46 PM
Hey you lost me what are you talking about?

Lenoxxx

DH Danmark Oct 7th 3:47 AM
A lot of things, mainly the
SPOILER!!!!
SPOILER!!!!
SPOILER!!!!
part about Norma when she is captured by a cymek, and she does some stuff to herself.

MORE SPOILER!!!
MORE SPOILER!!!
I did not stop at page 596, I cant just leave a book unfinished. I have read a few chapters more so far. But I agree that they easily could have finished after this chapter.
I must say I'm "impressed" how many important persons they can kill in a few pages.

And I think it is a little stupid how eveyone can see the future just by eating some spice (Norma, Selim Wormrider, the one who escaped from Poritrin (cant remember his name). If it is so easy as the chapter I have come to, where Norma is eating some spice and the sees some different stuff, then everyone could be navigators or see the future. She is seeing 10000 years into the future, quite good, I bet Paul couldnt do that, at least we arent told.

dogsolitude_uk Oct 8th 5:36 AM
I'd have thought that use of the spice for prescience would have taken a few generations of refinement before we got it right - a bit like our civilisations learning to brew beer ;)

BTW, DH, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I suggested stopping at p596! Having said that - do you agree with me that it might have been a good plan for the authors to stop thereabouts? Just curious!

Dog;)

DH Danmark Oct 8th 12:57 PM
I have finished it now, and I do not think it is better to stop at page 596.
I agree that it is like beginning on the next book after that, but IMO it is not a stupid way to do it. The last chapter about Marty and Daniel in Chapterhosue:Dune could also have been left for the next book, but because of this chapter it was the best ending of any dune books so far IMO.
So IMO it was good that Brian and Kevin did not stop at page 596, I were in fact surprised about the history in some of the last chapters (especielly what happened with Iblis Ginjo), and I normally are not surprissed a lot in the new Dune books, so it is quite nice (of course there were also a lot of stuff i didnt liked, but that is not a new thing). IMO it is the best ending in any of the books by Brian and Kevin so far. It is, if not a great cliffhanger, at least a cliffhanger :D

SPOILER!!
But another thing is, I had been expecting that Xavier was going to betray humanity in the Battle of Corrin (I believe Brian and Kevin stated it themeselves in the prequels), but it seems it has changed a little. Not a big error or something, I were just a little surprised.
End of spoiler!

No matter what, I'm looking forward to the next book, I'll probably be dissapointed.
It is quite difficult to rate the machine crusade, it started out being really bad, but it got much better in the last few hundred pages, but still with some bad stuff (and still too much repeating of everything), and a single extremly bad chapter too.

Moneo
User ID: 9899833 Jan 5th 6:07 AM
I agree fully on the "Extremely Bad Chapter (tm)".

*SPOILERS*
The precient vision of Norma could be explained by her heritage and her extraordinary capable brain. Selim had his vision when he was exposed to heavy doeses of spice near a spice blow. As for Ishmael - it seemed they wanted to imply that Selim had sent him the vision of Selim's boy in the Scorpion pit; not really precience but a vision of current events.

Orpheus
User ID: 9523443 Feb 26th 12:21 PM
Appreciate seeing everyone's thoughts on this new one...I myself am quite a fan of the new series..More visionary and grand in scope than the prequel series I agree..I also was surprised by Xavier's final actions, and look forward to the conclusion of these events..

Orpheus
User ID: 9523443 Feb 26th 12:25 PM
I forgot to add...Hecate's entire appearance and part disappointed me as well...It was predictable she would show, and I also felt she was used as a "cop-out" to dealing with cetain problems for characters in the book...

Moneo Mar 16th 7:01 AM
I agree there.

Moneo Mar 17th 5:49 AM
*SPOILERS AGAIN*

I've been thinking about the Bad Chapter(tm). Maybe the Tlulaxa will use the transformation of Norma as a template for their Face Dancer idea later on, but that would be really too far-fetched. But this led me to another thought:

Why have I thought "Bah, now BH & KJA are really going nuts" when I read about Norma's transformation, but accept Dune's Face Dancers as an easily acceptable fact? The mind-freeing powers of extreme pain is a common theme in Dune (spice agony, Miles Teg's torturing...)

What is it that makes the difference between the unbelievable stuff in the Bad Chapter, and in Dune? Weird.

DH Danmark Mar 17th 9:18 AM
Maybe because it sounds much more like wizardry in The Bad Chapter.
I really do not like the stuff about Face Dancers in the classic dune novels either, the reasons are some of the same as with Normas tranformation. At least FH didnt explained the face dancer transformations in every single stupid detail :)

Moneo Mar 19th 2:22 AM
Good point :D

- Moneo

Adam Oct 16th 11:34 AM
The face dancer's abilities are greatly explained throughout the original Dune books. Hello Scytale had his own narrative and explained the step by step process of becoming someone. But it's nowhere near as far fetched for a creature to have control over it's muscle structure to the point where it could alter it's appearence. Altering the bone structure however IS a bit far fetched as well as the hive conciousness of the face dancers. But the tleilaxu and Ixians are supposed to be 2 branches of extreme technology heading towards their own version of perfection so if they have what appears to the other cultures as 'magic' then how different are they from the Bene Gesserit >witches< so I think the extreme factors are there for a reason in each of the prime cultures. Also about anyone seeing the future. it has absoulutly nothing to do with the refinement of spice but rather as to the genetic structures the BG create in Paul (Oh and he CAN see 10000000000000000000000 years into the future or past if he wants to because he was OMNIprecient just like Leto II ) I believe that Frank's heretic son was trying to show that the Atreides and fremen precursors also contained the genetic make up to allow the spice to afflict them so. Anyways seeing as I'm a damned addict for the dune series and have read them too many times many of you may consider these the ravings of a mad man so... cool go ahead :)

ojspfdllz
User ID: 1397584 Apr 13th 1:34 AM
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Lenoxxx User ID: 0101764	Oct 3rd 8:01 PM Hey just finished reading the Machine Crusade, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the authors did a good job weaving together some of the Dune back story, Guild/ Bene Geserit/ Caladan etc. It seems like alot of the folks on here are just giving the book a fashionable "bash" The only thing that I can think of os the backlash of some fans to the Star Wars prequels featuring the "Clone Wars" - aka "they dont match the originals/ quality isnt there etc." I enjoyed those films for what they were, a fun attempt to explore the back history of some films we enjoyed- remember Ben Kenobi referencing those "Clone Wars"? The Two newest Dune books are exploring that same type of Vein- the Butlerian Jihad. Hey the story must be told, why not enjoy it. I have enjoyed the sub story of the Titans myself! ANyway like I tell my Star Wars friends- if you hate the new films, pretend they dont exist. Here's hoping BH & KA write a short story telling of the last days of the "Beast" Rabban! Lenoxxx
DH Danmark User ID: 0018434	Oct 4th 4:59 AM As I have said before I'm glad that they are writing new books. And my problem is ot that they are written in a different style than Frank did. My problem is the quality of the two writers. They make a lot of errors that could be so easily removed. E.g. repeating themselves over and over again, and so on (I have said it too much before, so read all my other complaints elsewhere on the forum. I normally dont mind the discrepancies in the new dune stories, especielly not in the Legends series, history can be rewritten a lot of times through 10000 years. But otherwise I dont like all the storylines which seems to have no reason, and is only making discrepancies. E.g. the storyline aboit IX in the prequels. It seems unlikely that the atreides and IX should have been so close just af few years before Dune Classic, and we hear nothing about them in these. And the storyline is really not leading anywhere (the only important thing it leads to, is that Dr. Wellington comes to caladan) Discrepencies like that I really dont like. It seems they are doing everything they can to write big books, as if the quality of a book where measured in pages. They could IMO easily have removed some hundred pages from each of there books, and the overall quality could then have been much better. The last thing which I dont like about the new books is something which I guess never will change in the books by Brian and KEvin. When I read the books I feel they are so plane and simple. There really is nothing else than the story in the books, no messages or themes. Of course this is not totally true, eg. in the Legends the part about how the humans have slaves just like the machines a theme imo, and there is also a few others, but it is still very thin. Not like the Dune Classics, with themes about ecology, religion, idolizing leaders and so on. That is probably the thing I miss most.
dogsolitude_uk	Oct 5th 12:07 PM I think DH has also summed up my opinions on the matter too - I completely agree on all those points. I felt as if I had learnt something after reading each of FH's books, and there was a tremendous sense of discovery, not just about the Duniverse, but also about our own world. I really love that in a book. Having just a story rarely keeps my interest for long. Still, I'll continue to read the prequels anyway because I quite enjoy them, but in a different way to FH's work. To give an analogy - I like Mars bars (and Toblerones... Well, most chocolate in fact), and I also like dining out in good restaurants. I like both, but for different reasons. In fact, I'm currently nibbling on some Bahlsen Choco-Liebniz which are absolutely gorgeous and possibly unique in that I know of no other biscuit named after a mathematician... Dog;)
DH Danmark	Oct 5th 2:15 PM I have read some more in the book now, (page 534 so far), and I am starting to enjoy it a little more, except for a single chapter which is without comparison (IMO) the worst chapter Brian and Kevin have ever written. Because I dont want to spoil things, I'll just say it is page 391-397 in the english edition. Some of the stuff happening in this chapter is against anything else in Dune, I bet the next will be green aliens and ghosts. I will just try to forget that the chapter even exists, but it is quite sad it should come up just when the book had become much better. And I'm begging that Brian and Kevin never will write anything that stupid again.
dogsolitude_uk	Oct 6th 1:02 PM I made a comment obliquely referring to that particular travesty of fiction a while back... And I agree, I think it can be safely skipped. As can most of the bits when Serena Butler does the Lady Diana bit with wounded soldiers. But yeh, it does improve. By the way, stop reading at the end of page 596 in the UK edition. Or thereabouts. The rest makes a pretty good intro for a 'next novel' rather than an end of the current one. Dog;)
Lenoxxx User ID: 0101764	Oct 6th 4:46 PM Hey you lost me what are you talking about? Lenoxxx
DH Danmark	Oct 7th 3:47 AM A lot of things, mainly the SPOILER!!!! SPOILER!!!! SPOILER!!!! part about Norma when she is captured by a cymek, and she does some stuff to herself. MORE SPOILER!!! MORE SPOILER!!! I did not stop at page 596, I cant just leave a book unfinished. I have read a few chapters more so far. But I agree that they easily could have finished after this chapter. I must say I'm "impressed" how many important persons they can kill in a few pages. And I think it is a little stupid how eveyone can see the future just by eating some spice (Norma, Selim Wormrider, the one who escaped from Poritrin (cant remember his name). If it is so easy as the chapter I have come to, where Norma is eating some spice and the sees some different stuff, then everyone could be navigators or see the future. She is seeing 10000 years into the future, quite good, I bet Paul couldnt do that, at least we arent told.
dogsolitude_uk	Oct 8th 5:36 AM I'd have thought that use of the spice for prescience would have taken a few generations of refinement before we got it right - a bit like our civilisations learning to brew beer ;) BTW, DH, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I suggested stopping at p596! Having said that - do you agree with me that it might have been a good plan for the authors to stop thereabouts? Just curious! Dog;)
DH Danmark	Oct 8th 12:57 PM I have finished it now, and I do not think it is better to stop at page 596. I agree that it is like beginning on the next book after that, but IMO it is not a stupid way to do it. The last chapter about Marty and Daniel in Chapterhosue:Dune could also have been left for the next book, but because of this chapter it was the best ending of any dune books so far IMO. So IMO it was good that Brian and Kevin did not stop at page 596, I were in fact surprised about the history in some of the last chapters (especielly what happened with Iblis Ginjo), and I normally are not surprissed a lot in the new Dune books, so it is quite nice (of course there were also a lot of stuff i didnt liked, but that is not a new thing). IMO it is the best ending in any of the books by Brian and Kevin so far. It is, if not a great cliffhanger, at least a cliffhanger :D SPOILER!! But another thing is, I had been expecting that Xavier was going to betray humanity in the Battle of Corrin (I believe Brian and Kevin stated it themeselves in the prequels), but it seems it has changed a little. Not a big error or something, I were just a little surprised. End of spoiler! No matter what, I'm looking forward to the next book, I'll probably be dissapointed. It is quite difficult to rate the machine crusade, it started out being really bad, but it got much better in the last few hundred pages, but still with some bad stuff (and still too much repeating of everything), and a single extremly bad chapter too.
Moneo User ID: 9899833	Jan 5th 6:07 AM I agree fully on the "Extremely Bad Chapter (tm)". SPOILERS The precient vision of Norma could be explained by her heritage and her extraordinary capable brain. Selim had his vision when he was exposed to heavy doeses of spice near a spice blow. As for Ishmael - it seemed they wanted to imply that Selim had sent him the vision of Selim's boy in the Scorpion pit; not really precience but a vision of current events.
Orpheus User ID: 9523443	Feb 26th 12:21 PM Appreciate seeing everyone's thoughts on this new one...I myself am quite a fan of the new series..More visionary and grand in scope than the prequel series I agree..I also was surprised by Xavier's final actions, and look forward to the conclusion of these events..
Orpheus User ID: 9523443	Feb 26th 12:25 PM I forgot to add...Hecate's entire appearance and part disappointed me as well...It was predictable she would show, and I also felt she was used as a "cop-out" to dealing with cetain problems for characters in the book...
Moneo	Mar 16th 7:01 AM I agree there.
Moneo	Mar 17th 5:49 AM SPOILERS AGAIN I've been thinking about the Bad Chapter(tm). Maybe the Tlulaxa will use the transformation of Norma as a template for their Face Dancer idea later on, but that would be really too far-fetched. But this led me to another thought: Why have I thought "Bah, now BH & KJA are really going nuts" when I read about Norma's transformation, but accept Dune's Face Dancers as an easily acceptable fact? The mind-freeing powers of extreme pain is a common theme in Dune (spice agony, Miles Teg's torturing...) What is it that makes the difference between the unbelievable stuff in the Bad Chapter, and in Dune? Weird.
DH Danmark	Mar 17th 9:18 AM Maybe because it sounds much more like wizardry in The Bad Chapter. I really do not like the stuff about Face Dancers in the classic dune novels either, the reasons are some of the same as with Normas tranformation. At least FH didnt explained the face dancer transformations in every single stupid detail :)
Moneo	Mar 19th 2:22 AM Good point :D - Moneo
Adam	Oct 16th 11:34 AM The face dancer's abilities are greatly explained throughout the original Dune books. Hello Scytale had his own narrative and explained the step by step process of becoming someone. But it's nowhere near as far fetched for a creature to have control over it's muscle structure to the point where it could alter it's appearence. Altering the bone structure however IS a bit far fetched as well as the hive conciousness of the face dancers. But the tleilaxu and Ixians are supposed to be 2 branches of extreme technology heading towards their own version of perfection so if they have what appears to the other cultures as 'magic' then how different are they from the Bene Gesserit >witches< so I think the extreme factors are there for a reason in each of the prime cultures. Also about anyone seeing the future. it has absoulutly nothing to do with the refinement of spice but rather as to the genetic structures the BG create in Paul (Oh and he CAN see 10000000000000000000000 years into the future or past if he wants to because he was OMNIprecient just like Leto II ) I believe that Frank's heretic son was trying to show that the Atreides and fremen precursors also contained the genetic make up to allow the spice to afflict them so. Anyways seeing as I'm a damned addict for the dune series and have read them too many times many of you may consider these the ravings of a mad man so... cool go ahead :)
ojspfdllz User ID: 1397584	Apr 13th 1:34 AM lQONtz <a href="http://ofqjhvlpkejs.com/">ofqjhvlpkejs</a>, [url=http://ufxhdaebauru.com/]ufxhdaebauru[/url], [link=http://akdzigvzpfcz.com/]akdzigvzpfcz[/link], http://ywltonxbrrzh.com/