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Khakain  |  General Category  |  Dimensional Void  |  Topic: Transgender protocol
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hekkel
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« on: February 04, 2014, 08:26:34 PM »

A few years ago, my mom told me that she and my grandmother went into a department store to buy some makeup, and the person behind the counter was trainsgender; specifically, a man dressed as a woman.  I don't know the exact context, but at some point in the interaction it became necessary for my mom to refer to the salesperson in the third person.  Maybe she was reminding my grandma that the salesperson said there was a sale on eyeshadow or something.  I don't know.  But when she did, she accidentally said the third person singular he.  

Now, my mom is a very kind and accepting person, and has absolutely no disdain for anyone who chooses to dress like the opposite sex, or have sex with the same sex, or any other variation of gender and sexuality.  She certainly did not mean to offend or belittle the salesperson, but this person became cunty and aggressively corrected her, saying "SHE!".  My mom is a lovely person and I wanted to go down there and stave in this asshole's head.  Of course, I did not, but I still stewed on it for a few years.  

There are two things that bother me about what happened.  The first, obviously, is this person startling my mom.  But the other thing is elusive, and it's occupied a space in the back of my mind ever since that day years ago while my unconscious slow cooked it and tried to unravel it.  Then, just the other day, it came to me out of nowhere (weird how that works), and I suddenly understood the second thing that made me mad.

Before I get to that, though, I have to make it clear that I roundly support LBGT rights, as does (I'm pretty sure) everyone else here at the old stinkin' Board.  I know I make a lot of jokes about gay people and transgenders, but they're jokes, and at the end of the day, I totally believe in your right to dress however the hell you please.  Pretty standard stuff for anyone who isn't a total douchebag.

But here's where I might become unpopular with my LGBT friends, and also the second thing that made me mad: you can't get mad if you ask someone to indulge you and they don't.  Look, you may be wearing makeup and have had the hormone injections that grew you tits, but most of the time I can tell you're a man.  You have the telltale jawline, or the height, or the broad shoulders, or the large hands.  I will admit that I have been surprised a few times (pleasantly?), but most of the time I fucking know, okay?  I will respect your desire to be a woman, and I will refer to you with the pronoun that I think will make you the happiest.  But since I know you were born a man, I am playing along with you, and YOU CAN'T GET CUNTY IF YOU ASK SOMEONE TO HUMOR YOU AND THEY DON'T!  I don't owe you anything.  If I know you're really a man, then whether or not I want to go along with it is completely up to me.  And you really can't get mad if someone slips up and calls you "he" (what happened to my mom), and you really really can't get mad if someone is from a tiny town in Wisconsin and has never encountered trainsgender person and isn't sure what the fuck to call you because they don't know the protocol.

So fuck you, makeup salesperson.
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 08:33:32 PM »

Interesting topic. A+
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Efreit
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 08:35:58 PM »

Yeah, I mean, if you look at it as indulging someone by referring to them by their preferred pronoun then sure, your argument holds.

If, on the other hand, you look at it as a human right to live as the gender you feel you were born as (physical reality notwithstanding), being referred to as a member of that gender goes with it. I liken it to homosexuality not being a choice. Since the transgender person didn't really choose to feel their gender disconnect, there is some expectation from me that society should, like with homosexual men and women, accept it and go with it.

Having said that, nobody should get angry for an honest mistake. What the clerk did to your mother isn't cool. If you're transitioning, you need to not be in denial about it - you might still look like the other gender, even if you don't feel like it.
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Efreit
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 08:39:00 PM »

What's with the filter on transgender?
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WC
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 08:55:46 PM »

cisshet problems boo hoo >:O
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 08:56:55 PM »

I don't support the fact that you did not trigger warning this thread
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hekkel
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 09:02:28 PM »

I support the fact that I did something that you don't support.  What's trigger warning?
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hekkel
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 09:06:16 PM »

Also, stop gaslighting me you jerk.
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 09:25:45 PM »

What's with the filter on transgender?

Seeing as how it is at the bottom of the censor list, most likely Ori put it there... for whatever reason. I just leave words uncensored, so I never really notice these filters unless someone brings them up i almost skullfucked a moose.

As to the original subject matter, I think Efreit summed it up pretty nicely. So blast fax kudos to you, my Aussie pal.

Also, while I am not defending the behavior of the clerk at all, it could have been a snap of frustration deal (long day coupled with the same old being called "he" again, or something to that effect). I know I have certainly acted like an ass quite a few times due to my hot-tempered nature (which, hopefully, is not completely reflective of who I am as a whole), so I can kind of understand why it (might have) happened. Even if such were the case, though, yeah: not cool, Booboo. Not cool at all. Just understandable to a certain degree, I guess.
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 09:34:27 PM »

Trigger warnings are the hip new blogosphere term among the easily offended or psychologically traumatized for what used to be encompassed by those "viewer discretion advised" things before TV shows.  Except usually on fanfiction and blog posts.  In other words, spoilers for the shocking stuff.

As to the topic, I gotta agree with Freet, too.  An honest mistake is one thing, but if you're actively disregarding them after making their gender identity known, that...does kind of give them room to get huffy in return.  It may make them a wet blanket and/or an excellent target for needling if they do so, but lines of etiquette are getting crossed.
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Mandrang Ganon
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 09:51:10 PM »

The salesperson shouldn't have been nasty about  someone making an honest mistake. Your mom should've apologized for making an honest mistake.

This is pretty cut and dry, no?
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Empress Oriana
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 06:12:06 AM »

Please don't blame me for everything. I have no clue where the censor list is or how to censor. Yes I accidentally have locked or stickied topics due to shoving my touch screen phone in my pocket but I'm not just running around committing admin fuckery.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 06:30:23 AM »

*cue an essay from Veeg next time he logs on*
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 06:50:12 AM »

Please don't blame me for everything. I have no clue where the censor list is or how to censor. Yes I accidentally have locked or stickied topics due to shoving my touch screen phone in my pocket but I'm not just running around committing admin fuckery.

Then it must be Deco. Only he would dare to go for the train pun in such an obvious way.
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TurboEmu
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 07:44:04 AM »

What is it filtering to?
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 07:46:23 AM »

We should just get rid of all the filters. They're all pretty unnecessary.

i almost skullfucked a moose can stay
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 08:02:07 AM »

What is it filtering to?

trainsgender

We should just get rid of all the filters. They're all pretty unnecessary.

i almost skullfucked a moose can stay

They usually do no harm, so I see no reason to disband them. Again, if you can convince one of the others to do something, so be it, but I am out.
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2014, 08:11:17 AM »

The filters are usually inside jokes that only like one person understands anyway. Dumb.
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2014, 08:16:31 AM »

I am not necessarily against you. But I am not prepared to make war with Tini, Nair, Deco, Q, and Ori over it.
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2014, 08:18:07 AM »

If they were totally offensive in nature or something, of course. But they are not, so...
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2014, 08:18:44 AM »

Nah this isn't on you. This is on...THEM
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Empress Oriana
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2014, 08:24:54 AM »

I've already pointed out I don't know where the censor list is.
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2014, 08:25:50 AM »

Take off every zig!!!
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 08:28:08 AM »

http://www.khakain.com/ThePlayground/index.php?action=postsettings;sa=censor

In theory, only admins should be able to see this link to the fullest extent.
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 08:30:49 AM »

Yeah, aite.
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Hitman
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 08:37:13 AM »

Getting back on track... I'm personally with Devin on this even though it might sound mean
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 08:43:44 AM »

It would only be mean, in my view, if you absolutely refused to abide by the wishes of a transgendered person. Since he did not express such a view, I do not find your agreeing with his overall assessment as being mean.

I doubt anyone would, for that matter.
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 08:45:37 AM »

Sometimes you just gotta accept that certain people will never accept you for you are, no matter how stupid and illogical it may be.
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 08:49:51 AM »

Yeah? Cause at first I didn't think it was mean but then I realized that I have no idea what a transgender person is feeling. If they're a woman trapped inside a man's body or vice versa then it might be a very sensitive subject. If someone fails to acknowledge  this after the transgender person has attempted to physically correct the discrepancy (even if it's a botch job) then I could see it as being offensive.
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2014, 08:50:03 AM »

Basically what Andrew said.  That being said, trans people are no different than other people, i.e., some can be as stuck up and assholish as anyone else.  And sadly, since those select few are so loud about it, they tend to be the face of the trans community for better or worse, which is a shame.
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2014, 08:58:16 AM »

Yeah? Cause at first I didn't think it was mean but then I realized that I have no idea what a transgender person is feeling. If they're a woman trapped inside a man's body or vice versa then it might be a very sensitive subject. If someone fails to acknowledge  this after the transgender person has attempted to physically correct the discrepancy (even if it's a botch job) then I could see it as being offensive.

I mean more like... they let you know about it, and you persist in it. That would make you a total douche. And, as even Devin said, no one likes douches.

Basically what Andrew said.  That being said, trans people are no different than other people, i.e., some can be as stuck up and assholish as anyone else.  And sadly, since those select few are so loud about it, they tend to be the face of the trans community for better or worse, which is a shame.

Indeed. It is sad that the ones who usually take up the spotlight are the biggest dillholes who have no business doing so and do nothing to positively advance the cause.
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2014, 10:34:58 AM »

Getting back on track...

 Smiley
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dallas
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2014, 06:48:22 PM »

i would not particularly associate myself with people who have such mental difficulties, and therefore, i am polite and bashful to these 'transgender' people.

there is a nice man/lady that works at a cute shop on my street - see shim around all the time; once some douche bags outside a bar started shouting, and shim just walked right on by.

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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2014, 08:19:36 PM »

I specifically avoid them when I see them, because I don't want to have to figure out what they want to be called and accidentally step on their toes.
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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2014, 08:22:57 PM »

agreed.

i DON'T care at all - but if you ask me to invest my emotions into some sort of relationship with a 'transgender' - i don't know if i'd be able to bypass the mental irregularities.
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2014, 08:29:46 PM »

I was gonna say "that's racist!" but it doesn't really make sense. Homophobic doesn't work either...

Is there an equivalent word for this situation?
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dallas
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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2014, 08:32:14 PM »

no, because you're a bigot if you don't want to deal with people's individual irregularities.

maybe. i just feel like 'transgender' people put A LOT OF EFFORT into something other's don't want to even acknowledge.
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Hitman
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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2014, 08:34:37 PM »

wouldn't that be the same with gay people?
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dallas
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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2014, 08:35:25 PM »

and yes, i CAN understand 'feeling like a woman' - but then comes the surgeries and the 'MAKE  BELIEVE" aspect... the torment. who would want to do that, just to PROVE TO THE WHOLE WORLD THEY WERE BORN THE WRONG WAY. FIND A HOBBY HOLY SHIT.
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dallas
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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2014, 08:36:33 PM »

wouldn't that be the same with gay people?

yes. i can understand the gays.

what i don't understand is the precociousness inherent in the label. i don't understand the wanton sexuality of 'gay culture'.
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2014, 08:37:59 PM »

I used to go to a place called Wantan Kabob for lunch.
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Mandrang Ganon
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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2014, 08:38:29 PM »

This thread is such a car wreck. Just avoid subjects like this, it makes me think less of you all  Undecided It's like hearing my grandpa use the term Oriental.
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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2014, 08:40:29 PM »

I was gonna say "that's racist!" but it doesn't really make sense. Homophobic doesn't work either...

Is there an equivalent word for this situation?

transphobic
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dallas
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« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2014, 08:43:21 PM »

I was gonna say "that's racist!" but it doesn't really make sense. Homophobic doesn't work either...

Is there an equivalent word for this situation?

transphobic

just like all the 'cool' people who don't want to hang out with you must have some sort of mental/social deficiency. those guys are assholes. transgender folks are just tryin' to get by.

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« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2014, 09:28:53 PM »

if you really want to dive deep you could also say cissexist
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« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2014, 09:37:30 PM »

I specifically avoid them when I see them, because I don't want to have to figure out what they want to be called and accidentally step on their toes.

If she presents as a girl, chances are she wants to be called she.
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« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2014, 10:10:17 PM »

no, because you're a bigot if you don't want to deal with people's individual irregularities.

maybe. i just feel like 'trainsgender' people put A LOT OF EFFORT into something other's don't want to even acknowledge.

You don't acknowledge it because you don't have to. They put a lot of effort into it because they have to.
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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2014, 01:08:34 AM »

no, because you're a bigot if you don't want to deal with people's individual irregularities.

maybe. i just feel like 'trainsgender' people put A LOT OF EFFORT into something other's don't want to even acknowledge.

You don't acknowledge it because you don't have to. They put a lot of effort into it because they have to.

What a headache. Transgenders are like the introverts of the gender world. An introverted transgendered vegan would be the most high-maintenance girlfriend in the world.
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2014, 09:07:55 AM »

i dunno, just seems like a lot of effort to be able to say "look at me, i figured myself out"
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2014, 10:04:28 AM »

I'd think it's less of that and more akin to the motivations behind why people get breast reductions or take antidepressants.  Y'know, "this physical and/or psychological state is at odds with how I should be living my life, so I'm gonna take steps to align them."  Is it that surprising that someone would want to put in effort for that?
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