C Melody Saxophone Forum

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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Repairs and Refurbishing / frozen rod

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 11th 10:32 AM
Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate.

Regards,

Owen

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Nov 11th 4:54 PM
Ukebert...Use any good penitrating oil. Go to StrongArmSprays.comon the net. They make the finest penitrating oils available anywhere. Their products reverse and dissolve rust as well as freeing the screws and rods. Anyone who repairs musical instruments should have this stuff in their arsenal. It is the best stuff that I have ever come across for this purpose. It has never harmed any plating that I have used it near. You don't need to use much. That should read: StrongArmSprays.com.

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 13th 3:10 PM
I tried key oil- no good. I'm figuring I'll go to Homebase or somewhere and get something similar to what you suggested Cap'n, but I don't want to order from the US. I did however get one of the rods to unstick.

Owen

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 13th 8:00 PM
Owen - I've been meaning to reply for a couple of days, finally have time at nearly 2 a.m.. Go to Halfords and get a black aerosol 400 ml can of Loctite Freeze & Release (Schnell-Rostloser Eis). Part No 8040 / Cat No. 39160

Used over a few days it works miracles. Don't spray it all over, just gently dribble (comes with a thin tube) a few drops onto the threaded end of the rod and into any other gaps. Dribble-tweak-drobble-leave. Try standing the sax up in such a way that it dribbles where you need it most, and - PATIENCE !! Just a little extra movement each time you try. Amazing how one day it just comes free...

Tweak any stuck rod first as tho' you were tightening up, this frequently works to break any seal, because you can apply more pressure screwing-in than unscrewing - and it helps to also waggle the keys whilst keeping the rod still with the screwdriver, often it's all the gunge in the tube that's the main culprit..

There are more advanced techniques which involve heating externally (butane torch or even hot haidryer) and the getting Freeze Release onto the internals, I'm sure you know the physics.

Once a stuck rod moves, be careful not to damage the slotted end - very easy, if brittle, to break one of the 'ears' off once it comes clear of the pillar.... Get a friend to hold the sax so you can concentrate on screwing....... (no risque jokes please !!)

P.S. apropos your email about (do I have) a spare Conn octave mechanism, I have a Conn C-Mel also in need of the same bits. In the listing it wasn't photographed from the back............. Sorry !

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 13th 8:01 PM
drobble ?? it is 2.14 a.m. !

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 14th 7:56 AM
Alan, thanks for the info, and it's OK about the bit. However, I would appreciate a photo, so that I can see what it's supposed to look like...

I'll go to Halfords at the weekend, and try.

Owen

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 14th 10:16 PM
Owen - I can't take a photo of the bit that isn't there.... I'll see if I've got any photo's of the Conn back/top from old Conn C-Mels that I've had.

Captain Bb
User ID: 1738604 Nov 15th 7:57 AM
Owen...A method that I have successfully used, but only in extremis, is to unsolder the top post....the post housing the screwdriver slot. This reveals a short length of the seized (frozen?) rod on which one can get a purchase with a mole grip or similar. This may sound a desperate tactic but it is nothing like as brutal as it sounds...it is possible to use a mole grip gently, & any scuffing of the rod can be cleaned up on re-assembly. Repositioning the post is easy, because it's site is illuminated by the bright solder disc on the sax body.
This method eliminates the ever present risk (as Alan pointed out) of breaking off one ear of the screwdriver slot....when, (not if!) this happens, you are stuffed....then you will be FORCED to unsolder the top post....so, cut out the middle man & get down to it. Release oil is no magic formula & a point is reached when you know that half a century of corrosion will never be overcome without bringing out the heavy tackle.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 16th 6:58 AM
Agreed Bb, and on newly polished silver plated saxes it's even difficult to spot new solder when the pillar is replaced, as long as care is taken, which comes with practise.

I'd advise anyone working on saxes to purchase a really manky (even flattened) old sax and do a little soldering (US = soddering ?) practise first, it's easy once you know how and have confidence. You don't need an amazing setup - here's what I use, the torch refills from standard fag lighter gas - with the addition of a few scrapers and a solder-sucker from my electronic soldering days.

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg

And, although you obviously unsolder the pillar, it's illuminating how many respected players/fixers are admitting to sometimes using metal epoxy to refix pillars and guards when deemed preferable to re-soldering (JB-Weld etc. - which CAN be later removed easily for subsequent soldering or whatever...). But re-soldering is always best, if possible, imho.

There's a lot of useful info on the net (including the repair section od saxontheweb) about soldering techniques. Lewis, talk about stataing the obvious, but a friend in the US told me that he heavily applies release oil/spray to all threads/pivots immrediately on receipt of any 'to be fixed' sax. Then he wraps it in cloth and polythene and stores it away in the case until he's ready to work on it. Not only do most bits seem to come apart easier, but the case then has a gentle 'oily smell' rather that the traditional 'dead cat' smell that we all know and love..........
===
(P.S. in the UK, 'fag' is slang for ciggie, roll-up or cigarette - not sexual orientation......)

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 16th 7:04 AM
PPS - obviously such a small gas torch as at -

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg

- can also be used for gently applying heat to the otside of siezed mechanisms, and heating/reheating shellac. And generating hot air (although there's enough of that on this forum !) for the fashionably increased use of heat-shrink tubing on some parts of sax mechanisms. So versatile, eh ?

And, NO, I don't sell them...... (but maybe I should ?)

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 16th 7:17 AM
I thing I may be taking over from Roger (remeber Roger ?) in the "long postings" department.

Oh dear.... Are you still looking in occasionally, Roger ?

Captain Bb
User ID: 1738604 Nov 16th 7:46 AM
Owen....All of Alan's knowledgeable views serves to shew that, certainly in my experience, the most difficult aspect of rebuilding an old saxophone is getting the thing apart....

Captain Bb
User ID: 1738604 Nov 16th 7:54 AM
Oh yes,...dear old Roger.....those were the days....those protracted discussions whereby adding 2% of Unobtainium & 7% of Lithium to a Platinum "Carlos Fandango" lig. really improved one's sound. Life was so much simpler then. :-)

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 16th 10:12 AM
Thanks all, I'll bear that in mind. I've got a soldering iron, solder sucker, solder and butane torch, so it shouldn't be a problem.

WW2
User ID: 1585334 Nov 17th 4:29 PM
For soldering, is a torch preferable to an iron? Yes, in the US it is soldering, but we don't like to pronounce the "L". What is the best solder/flux to use on bare brass, silver plated, and lacquered saxes?

For the naive amongst us, what is a "Solder Sucker"?

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 17th 4:51 PM
Wade - for saxes it really has to be a gas torch, the iron is usually just for electronic/electrical use, although with a fine tip it can sometimes be used to 'tidy up' (smooth) external surfaces. But generally doesn't generate enough heat for instrument repair.

A 'solder sucker' is a small hand-held device that picks up blobs of molten stray solder - either when too much is applied or de-soldering joints on PCB's - copper braid is also used. Shown on this page, towards the bottom.

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/solder.htm

WW2
User ID: 1585334 Nov 17th 5:08 PM
Thanks Alan (UK)!

I guess I need to get a more subtle torch than my large hand held propane torch (About a 6 inch flame with a 4 inch spread on full!) Great for freeing up frozed axle rods and the like. Make toast pretty quickly as well! 8-)

I especially liked the "First Aid for Burns" section on the page you referenced. Hopefully I can avoid the painful part of soldering (having experienced it in the past).

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 19th 6:34 AM
I still have a scar on my finger from picking up a soldering iron by the wrong end... Always look what you're doing ;-)

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 15th 11:09 AM
Horay! Today I managed to finally take the rod out of the LH stack, with only a little brute force.

I switched to WD40 a couple of days ago, and it seems to have worked, anyway it slid out quite easily. Probably a combination of factors. Wiggling the key while putting the oil in also helped I think. There's a special name for that, beginning with c I think.

There's still one key that's stuck; the F# fork. With any luck it'll shift with the oil, but that one shouldn't be that difficult to unsolder the post.

Owen

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 15th 12:33 PM
Just 'stating the obvious', but where a key moves OK but the rod is seized - a pad (or cork or spring) can often be repaced without actually removing the key. I know it's always best to strip & re-lube, but where "needs must".....

Can always keep soaking and trying in between playing !

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 11th 10:32 AM Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate. Regards, Owen
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Nov 11th 4:54 PM Ukebert...Use any good penitrating oil. Go to StrongArmSprays.comon the net. They make the finest penitrating oils available anywhere. Their products reverse and dissolve rust as well as freeing the screws and rods. Anyone who repairs musical instruments should have this stuff in their arsenal. It is the best stuff that I have ever come across for this purpose. It has never harmed any plating that I have used it near. You don't need to use much. That should read: StrongArmSprays.com.
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 13th 3:10 PM I tried key oil- no good. I'm figuring I'll go to Homebase or somewhere and get something similar to what you suggested Cap'n, but I don't want to order from the US. I did however get one of the rods to unstick. Owen
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 13th 8:00 PM Owen - I've been meaning to reply for a couple of days, finally have time at nearly 2 a.m.. Go to Halfords and get a black aerosol 400 ml can of Loctite Freeze & Release (Schnell-Rostloser Eis). Part No 8040 / Cat No. 39160 Used over a few days it works miracles. Don't spray it all over, just gently dribble (comes with a thin tube) a few drops onto the threaded end of the rod and into any other gaps. Dribble-tweak-drobble-leave. Try standing the sax up in such a way that it dribbles where you need it most, and - PATIENCE !! Just a little extra movement each time you try. Amazing how one day it just comes free... Tweak any stuck rod first as tho' you were tightening up, this frequently works to break any seal, because you can apply more pressure screwing-in than unscrewing - and it helps to also waggle the keys whilst keeping the rod still with the screwdriver, often it's all the gunge in the tube that's the main culprit.. There are more advanced techniques which involve heating externally (butane torch or even hot haidryer) and the getting Freeze Release onto the internals, I'm sure you know the physics. Once a stuck rod moves, be careful not to damage the slotted end - very easy, if brittle, to break one of the 'ears' off once it comes clear of the pillar.... Get a friend to hold the sax so you can concentrate on screwing....... (no risque jokes please !!) P.S. apropos your email about (do I have) a spare Conn octave mechanism, I have a Conn C-Mel also in need of the same bits. In the listing it wasn't photographed from the back............. Sorry !
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 13th 8:01 PM drobble ?? it is 2.14 a.m. !
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 14th 7:56 AM Alan, thanks for the info, and it's OK about the bit. However, I would appreciate a photo, so that I can see what it's supposed to look like... I'll go to Halfords at the weekend, and try. Owen
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 14th 10:16 PM Owen - I can't take a photo of the bit that isn't there.... I'll see if I've got any photo's of the Conn back/top from old Conn C-Mels that I've had.
Captain Bb User ID: 1738604	Nov 15th 7:57 AM Owen...A method that I have successfully used, but only in extremis, is to unsolder the top post....the post housing the screwdriver slot. This reveals a short length of the seized (frozen?) rod on which one can get a purchase with a mole grip or similar. This may sound a desperate tactic but it is nothing like as brutal as it sounds...it is possible to use a mole grip gently, & any scuffing of the rod can be cleaned up on re-assembly. Repositioning the post is easy, because it's site is illuminated by the bright solder disc on the sax body. This method eliminates the ever present risk (as Alan pointed out) of breaking off one ear of the screwdriver slot....when, (not if!) this happens, you are stuffed....then you will be FORCED to unsolder the top post....so, cut out the middle man & get down to it. Release oil is no magic formula & a point is reached when you know that half a century of corrosion will never be overcome without bringing out the heavy tackle.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 16th 6:58 AM Agreed Bb, and on newly polished silver plated saxes it's even difficult to spot new solder when the pillar is replaced, as long as care is taken, which comes with practise. I'd advise anyone working on saxes to purchase a really manky (even flattened) old sax and do a little soldering (US = soddering ?) practise first, it's easy once you know how and have confidence. You don't need an amazing setup - here's what I use, the torch refills from standard fag lighter gas - with the addition of a few scrapers and a solder-sucker from my electronic soldering days. http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg And, although you obviously unsolder the pillar, it's illuminating how many respected players/fixers are admitting to sometimes using metal epoxy to refix pillars and guards when deemed preferable to re-soldering (JB-Weld etc. - which CAN be later removed easily for subsequent soldering or whatever...). But re-soldering is always best, if possible, imho. There's a lot of useful info on the net (including the repair section od saxontheweb) about soldering techniques. Lewis, talk about stataing the obvious, but a friend in the US told me that he heavily applies release oil/spray to all threads/pivots immrediately on receipt of any 'to be fixed' sax. Then he wraps it in cloth and polythene and stores it away in the case until he's ready to work on it. Not only do most bits seem to come apart easier, but the case then has a gentle 'oily smell' rather that the traditional 'dead cat' smell that we all know and love.......... === (P.S. in the UK, 'fag' is slang for ciggie, roll-up or cigarette - not sexual orientation......)
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 16th 7:04 AM PPS - obviously such a small gas torch as at - http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg - can also be used for gently applying heat to the otside of siezed mechanisms, and heating/reheating shellac. And generating hot air (although there's enough of that on this forum !) for the fashionably increased use of heat-shrink tubing on some parts of sax mechanisms. So versatile, eh ? And, NO, I don't sell them...... (but maybe I should ?)
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 16th 7:17 AM I thing I may be taking over from Roger (remeber Roger ?) in the "long postings" department. Oh dear.... Are you still looking in occasionally, Roger ?
Captain Bb User ID: 1738604	Nov 16th 7:46 AM Owen....All of Alan's knowledgeable views serves to shew that, certainly in my experience, the most difficult aspect of rebuilding an old saxophone is getting the thing apart....
Captain Bb User ID: 1738604	Nov 16th 7:54 AM Oh yes,...dear old Roger.....those were the days....those protracted discussions whereby adding 2% of Unobtainium & 7% of Lithium to a Platinum "Carlos Fandango" lig. really improved one's sound. Life was so much simpler then. :-)
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 16th 10:12 AM Thanks all, I'll bear that in mind. I've got a soldering iron, solder sucker, solder and butane torch, so it shouldn't be a problem.
WW2 User ID: 1585334	Nov 17th 4:29 PM For soldering, is a torch preferable to an iron? Yes, in the US it is soldering, but we don't like to pronounce the "L". What is the best solder/flux to use on bare brass, silver plated, and lacquered saxes? For the naive amongst us, what is a "Solder Sucker"?
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 17th 4:51 PM Wade - for saxes it really has to be a gas torch, the iron is usually just for electronic/electrical use, although with a fine tip it can sometimes be used to 'tidy up' (smooth) external surfaces. But generally doesn't generate enough heat for instrument repair. A 'solder sucker' is a small hand-held device that picks up blobs of molten stray solder - either when too much is applied or de-soldering joints on PCB's - copper braid is also used. Shown on this page, towards the bottom. http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/solder.htm
WW2 User ID: 1585334	Nov 17th 5:08 PM Thanks Alan (UK)! I guess I need to get a more subtle torch than my large hand held propane torch (About a 6 inch flame with a 4 inch spread on full!) Great for freeing up frozed axle rods and the like. Make toast pretty quickly as well! 8-) I especially liked the "First Aid for Burns" section on the page you referenced. Hopefully I can avoid the painful part of soldering (having experienced it in the past).
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 19th 6:34 AM I still have a scar on my finger from picking up a soldering iron by the wrong end... Always look what you're doing ;-)
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 15th 11:09 AM Horay! Today I managed to finally take the rod out of the LH stack, with only a little brute force. I switched to WD40 a couple of days ago, and it seems to have worked, anyway it slid out quite easily. Probably a combination of factors. Wiggling the key while putting the oil in also helped I think. There's a special name for that, beginning with c I think. There's still one key that's stuck; the F# fork. With any luck it'll shift with the oil, but that one shouldn't be that difficult to unsolder the post. Owen
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 15th 12:33 PM Just 'stating the obvious', but where a key moves OK but the rod is seized - a pad (or cork or spring) can often be repaced without actually removing the key. I know it's always best to strip & re-lube, but where "needs must"..... Can always keep soaking and trying in between playing !