C Melody Saxophone Forum

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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Repairs and Refurbishing / frozen rod

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ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 11th 10:32 AM
Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate.

Regards,

Owen

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 16th 7:04 AM
PPS - obviously such a small gas torch as at -

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg

- can also be used for gently applying heat to the otside of siezed mechanisms, and heating/reheating shellac. And generating hot air (although there's enough of that on this forum !) for the fashionably increased use of heat-shrink tubing on some parts of sax mechanisms. So versatile, eh ?

And, NO, I don't sell them...... (but maybe I should ?)

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 16th 7:17 AM
I thing I may be taking over from Roger (remeber Roger ?) in the "long postings" department.

Oh dear.... Are you still looking in occasionally, Roger ?

Captain Bb
User ID: 1738604 Nov 16th 7:46 AM
Owen....All of Alan's knowledgeable views serves to shew that, certainly in my experience, the most difficult aspect of rebuilding an old saxophone is getting the thing apart....

Captain Bb
User ID: 1738604 Nov 16th 7:54 AM
Oh yes,...dear old Roger.....those were the days....those protracted discussions whereby adding 2% of Unobtainium & 7% of Lithium to a Platinum "Carlos Fandango" lig. really improved one's sound. Life was so much simpler then. :-)

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 16th 10:12 AM
Thanks all, I'll bear that in mind. I've got a soldering iron, solder sucker, solder and butane torch, so it shouldn't be a problem.

WW2
User ID: 1585334 Nov 17th 4:29 PM
For soldering, is a torch preferable to an iron? Yes, in the US it is soldering, but we don't like to pronounce the "L". What is the best solder/flux to use on bare brass, silver plated, and lacquered saxes?

For the naive amongst us, what is a "Solder Sucker"?

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Nov 17th 4:51 PM
Wade - for saxes it really has to be a gas torch, the iron is usually just for electronic/electrical use, although with a fine tip it can sometimes be used to 'tidy up' (smooth) external surfaces. But generally doesn't generate enough heat for instrument repair.

A 'solder sucker' is a small hand-held device that picks up blobs of molten stray solder - either when too much is applied or de-soldering joints on PCB's - copper braid is also used. Shown on this page, towards the bottom.

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/solder.htm

WW2
User ID: 1585334 Nov 17th 5:08 PM
Thanks Alan (UK)!

I guess I need to get a more subtle torch than my large hand held propane torch (About a 6 inch flame with a 4 inch spread on full!) Great for freeing up frozed axle rods and the like. Make toast pretty quickly as well! 8-)

I especially liked the "First Aid for Burns" section on the page you referenced. Hopefully I can avoid the painful part of soldering (having experienced it in the past).

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 19th 6:34 AM
I still have a scar on my finger from picking up a soldering iron by the wrong end... Always look what you're doing ;-)

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 15th 11:09 AM
Horay! Today I managed to finally take the rod out of the LH stack, with only a little brute force.

I switched to WD40 a couple of days ago, and it seems to have worked, anyway it slid out quite easily. Probably a combination of factors. Wiggling the key while putting the oil in also helped I think. There's a special name for that, beginning with c I think.

There's still one key that's stuck; the F# fork. With any luck it'll shift with the oil, but that one shouldn't be that difficult to unsolder the post.

Owen

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 15th 12:33 PM
Just 'stating the obvious', but where a key moves OK but the rod is seized - a pad (or cork or spring) can often be repaced without actually removing the key. I know it's always best to strip & re-lube, but where "needs must".....

Can always keep soaking and trying in between playing !

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 16th 4:28 AM
True, but there's a cage over the F#, and I can't get to the pad.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 16th 9:55 AM
You can't even get an instrument screwdriver into the edge of the pad, and flip it out ? Or apply a little heat to the outside of the cup to melt the shellac ?

P.S - all you watchers, start posting, or the spammers will post more than the contributors.......... That'd be ironic !

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 16th 11:08 AM
Well, I can get a screwdriver in, and have got the pad off [resopad], but can't get the thing out.

I'll stick with the WD40 for the moment, and see what happens.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 16th 5:50 PM
Bleedin' Reso's........

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 17th 11:08 AM
;-)

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 17th 11:17 AM
Owen, I'll suggest it again... In circumstances where WD40 struggled, Loctite Freeze & Release (from Halfords) was impressive.

jazzbug1 2007
User ID: 0735934 Nov 28th 9:12 AM
The old topics awaken. Question for the pros: I am restoring a Rudy model soprano. It must have sat in water, as most of the rods were frozen in their posts and no penetrating oil (Liquid Wrench and PB Blaster) would free them even after three months. I unsoldered the posts, stripped the horn, but now I am left with rods that are stuck in the key tubes which will not budge. Furthermore, some have snapped off at both ends in my futile attemts to get them out. I have tried torching them to expand the tube, but to no avail. The only solution I can think of is to carefully cut a thin seam along the bottom of the tube, where it won't show, open it up a bit, get the rod out, then silver solder the seam back up. This sounds crude, so does anyone else have a better fix? These horns are quite rare and sound great, so my labor is like making love to this beautiful horn. It will join my C soprano on the stage.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Nov 28th 9:57 AM
jazzbug - you might also want to post this question on the saxontheweb forum, under -
Tech/Science Discussion > Sax Repair, Maintenance and Modification

I suspect, post-Katrina, a load of similarly afflicted horns will surface. (no pun intended...) Obviously you can't 'drift' them out by tapping the ends. Rust must have built up on the rods (inside the tubes) to a great extent. Ouch !

Back 20 Messages Next 20 Messages

ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 11th 10:32 AM Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate. Regards, Owen
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 16th 7:04 AM PPS - obviously such a small gas torch as at - http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/forum-files/soldering.jpg - can also be used for gently applying heat to the otside of siezed mechanisms, and heating/reheating shellac. And generating hot air (although there's enough of that on this forum !) for the fashionably increased use of heat-shrink tubing on some parts of sax mechanisms. So versatile, eh ? And, NO, I don't sell them...... (but maybe I should ?)
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 16th 7:17 AM I thing I may be taking over from Roger (remeber Roger ?) in the "long postings" department. Oh dear.... Are you still looking in occasionally, Roger ?
Captain Bb User ID: 1738604	Nov 16th 7:46 AM Owen....All of Alan's knowledgeable views serves to shew that, certainly in my experience, the most difficult aspect of rebuilding an old saxophone is getting the thing apart....
Captain Bb User ID: 1738604	Nov 16th 7:54 AM Oh yes,...dear old Roger.....those were the days....those protracted discussions whereby adding 2% of Unobtainium & 7% of Lithium to a Platinum "Carlos Fandango" lig. really improved one's sound. Life was so much simpler then. :-)
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 16th 10:12 AM Thanks all, I'll bear that in mind. I've got a soldering iron, solder sucker, solder and butane torch, so it shouldn't be a problem.
WW2 User ID: 1585334	Nov 17th 4:29 PM For soldering, is a torch preferable to an iron? Yes, in the US it is soldering, but we don't like to pronounce the "L". What is the best solder/flux to use on bare brass, silver plated, and lacquered saxes? For the naive amongst us, what is a "Solder Sucker"?
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Nov 17th 4:51 PM Wade - for saxes it really has to be a gas torch, the iron is usually just for electronic/electrical use, although with a fine tip it can sometimes be used to 'tidy up' (smooth) external surfaces. But generally doesn't generate enough heat for instrument repair. A 'solder sucker' is a small hand-held device that picks up blobs of molten stray solder - either when too much is applied or de-soldering joints on PCB's - copper braid is also used. Shown on this page, towards the bottom. http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/solder.htm
WW2 User ID: 1585334	Nov 17th 5:08 PM Thanks Alan (UK)! I guess I need to get a more subtle torch than my large hand held propane torch (About a 6 inch flame with a 4 inch spread on full!) Great for freeing up frozed axle rods and the like. Make toast pretty quickly as well! 8-) I especially liked the "First Aid for Burns" section on the page you referenced. Hopefully I can avoid the painful part of soldering (having experienced it in the past).
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 19th 6:34 AM I still have a scar on my finger from picking up a soldering iron by the wrong end... Always look what you're doing ;-)
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 15th 11:09 AM Horay! Today I managed to finally take the rod out of the LH stack, with only a little brute force. I switched to WD40 a couple of days ago, and it seems to have worked, anyway it slid out quite easily. Probably a combination of factors. Wiggling the key while putting the oil in also helped I think. There's a special name for that, beginning with c I think. There's still one key that's stuck; the F# fork. With any luck it'll shift with the oil, but that one shouldn't be that difficult to unsolder the post. Owen
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 15th 12:33 PM Just 'stating the obvious', but where a key moves OK but the rod is seized - a pad (or cork or spring) can often be repaced without actually removing the key. I know it's always best to strip & re-lube, but where "needs must"..... Can always keep soaking and trying in between playing !
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 16th 4:28 AM True, but there's a cage over the F#, and I can't get to the pad.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 16th 9:55 AM You can't even get an instrument screwdriver into the edge of the pad, and flip it out ? Or apply a little heat to the outside of the cup to melt the shellac ? P.S - all you watchers, start posting, or the spammers will post more than the contributors.......... That'd be ironic !
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 16th 11:08 AM Well, I can get a screwdriver in, and have got the pad off [resopad], but can't get the thing out. I'll stick with the WD40 for the moment, and see what happens.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 16th 5:50 PM Bleedin' Reso's........
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 17th 11:08 AM ;-)
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 17th 11:17 AM Owen, I'll suggest it again... In circumstances where WD40 struggled, Loctite Freeze & Release (from Halfords) was impressive.
jazzbug1 2007 User ID: 0735934	Nov 28th 9:12 AM The old topics awaken. Question for the pros: I am restoring a Rudy model soprano. It must have sat in water, as most of the rods were frozen in their posts and no penetrating oil (Liquid Wrench and PB Blaster) would free them even after three months. I unsoldered the posts, stripped the horn, but now I am left with rods that are stuck in the key tubes which will not budge. Furthermore, some have snapped off at both ends in my futile attemts to get them out. I have tried torching them to expand the tube, but to no avail. The only solution I can think of is to carefully cut a thin seam along the bottom of the tube, where it won't show, open it up a bit, get the rod out, then silver solder the seam back up. This sounds crude, so does anyone else have a better fix? These horns are quite rare and sound great, so my labor is like making love to this beautiful horn. It will join my C soprano on the stage.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Nov 28th 9:57 AM jazzbug - you might also want to post this question on the saxontheweb forum, under - Tech/Science Discussion > Sax Repair, Maintenance and Modification I suspect, post-Katrina, a load of similarly afflicted horns will surface. (no pun intended...) Obviously you can't 'drift' them out by tapping the ends. Rust must have built up on the rods (inside the tubes) to a great extent. Ouch !