C Melody Saxophone Forum

Swirve.com Links: Swirve.com Free Email Games Fantasy Sports E-Cards Movies Horoscopes Freebies Web Search

NOTICE: Beginning July 10th, 2008, this message board service will no longer be active or available for use.

C Melody Saxophone Forum / Repairs and Refurbishing / frozen rod

Back 20 Messages

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Nov 11th 10:32 AM
Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate.

Regards,

Owen

Jeff Frazier
User ID: 9426023 Nov 28th 11:31 AM
JB1,

Call me @ 1-866-996-6394.
I have some stuff here that works. I bought it just for "Katrina" type horns. I can give you some info on it.
HIS,
Jeff "Doc" Frazier
www.JandJ_WOoodwinds.com

alan (uk)
User ID: 1731514 Dec 3rd 9:12 PM
So Jeff - don't the rest of us get to know what it is, this "stuff" ?

Jeff Frazier 07
User ID: 1327644 Dec 3rd 9:54 PM
Alan (UK),

It is a chemical call "In-Force" made by
BG Products, Inc. It was made for the automotive industry. The best I have ever seen. Here is the link:

http://www.bgprod.com/products/aerosol.html

about 2/3 way down the page....#438

Just to give you an idea, the "Katrina" C that is on our site, after sterilizing the entire horn, soaked the keys and springs with a coat of In_Force, 30 minutes later it came apart and ALL of the springs out as if it had been kept in the closet for 80 years. Same thing with the Martin bari, a Martin alto sax, 2 clarinets and a Lyon and Healy trumpet in the same hurricane.

HIS,
Jeff
www.JandJWoodwinds.com

alan (uk)
User ID: 1731514 Dec 4th 4:16 AM
Thanks (sincerely...). It is heartening to know that a lot of Martins survived 8-)) - of course, I'm happy for all the other makes as well !

Alan.

jazzbug1 2007
User ID: 0735934 Dec 4th 7:36 AM
I sent for some "In-Force" per my conversation with Jeff. I'll let you all know how it worked.
May the In-Force be with you.

ukebert
User ID: 7928263 Dec 4th 7:48 AM
I'm assuming it won't corrode the silver plate?

Sounds like strong stuff.

Jeff 07
User ID: 1327644 Dec 4th 8:36 AM
It doesn't hurt silver, gold or lac at all.

HIS,
Jeff

ukebert
User ID: 7928263 Dec 4th 9:49 AM
Very impressive.

Captain Beeflat 2007
User ID: 1738604 Dec 5th 5:35 AM
Jazzbug.
What you are doing sounds to be bordering on the desperate.
Forgive me please for stating the obvious, but have you considered remaking the key tube with new brass tube?
Presumably you must have stock of tube, axle rod & a selection of small taps and dies. A far better, cleaner, and more satisfying than relying on "Bodgex", "Fixit", or similar palliatives. Spark erosion is another, equally unsatisfactory solution.
Some wise old Red Indian is alleged to have said "... it takes an hour to make a good arrow, and two hours to make a bad one..." Take heed.

jazzbug1 2007
User ID: 0735934 Dec 5th 7:31 AM
I am building what I hope will be the first successful fusion reactor to re-create, atom by atom, these frozen keys.

Captain Beeflat 2007
User ID: 1738604 Dec 5th 7:55 AM
Any chance of a sensible answer?

jazzbug1 2207
User ID: 0408214 Dec 8th 7:53 PM
Frozen rod break through. I had five situations where the rods were frozen beyond anything two very well trained repairmen of thirty years experience each had ever seen. Doc Frazier's "In-Force" freed one up (Thanks, Doc-- great stuff).
I was nearing the completion of the fusion reactor, when I remembered my two decades of work in non-ferrous metals, mostly precious and brass. Hmmm.. iron rod in brass casing. That's it! Unequal co-efficients of expansion, which means heat or cold will cause the brass to expand/contract more than the steel rod. I put them in the freezer, brought each one out and heated it. Tapped a hardened steel rod (cut off Allen wrench slightly smaller diameter than the rod)on the rod) and it slowly came out.
This worked for all of them. It helps if you find a flat piece of steel in which you drill a hole the diameter of the rod. Place the brass tubing flush agaaist it, with the frozen rod facing into the drilled hole. Tap with a light hammer very straightly or you can bend the whole thing. I was ready to cut the tubing or run the reactor. Too bad I didn't run the reactor, as it would have been the greatest scientific breakthrough since controlled fission. Oh well, I'll just leave it in the yard. This Rudy soprano may have been a flood victim, as it came off Ebay, down South, and was poorly represented in a blurry photo. The clown tossed it in a box, did not insure it (I paid him for insurance). It arrived with the bell sticking through the box with some bad dents. I gave him bad feedback and will deal with him further after I start my world religion.

Captain Beeflat 2007
User ID: 1738604 Dec 9th 6:00 AM
Rather more than differing coefficients of linear expansion I fear.
Were this the case, then the application of heat would increase the annular clearance.
The problem with using dis-similar metals is the electrolytic reaction between them...this can be as effective as welding!
Best of luck. I still think that your best option is to remake the problem part with new tube & axle rod....cutting off & resoldering any linkages.

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 8th 12:19 AM
Jazzbug: I was going to offer the freeze-and-heat method when I first saw this thread, glad to see you came to it on your own.

This is also a trick often used to retrieve data off a hard drive that won't spin -- put it in a Ziploc bag in the freezer for a few hours, then try powering it up (cold, but still in the bag except for the bare minimum necessary to hook it up -- you don't want condensation) and try to get all the data off before it seizes up again. If it's feasible to run it inside the freezer, so much the better. The reason is similar, in that the bearings and the races are different metals that have different thermal expansion rates and this will sometimes get them to loosen up.

Like the method you used on the sax, it only has to work once. Then you can replace the failed part(s).

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Feb 11th 2:58 PM
I took my Studebaker for a hard drive: two flat tires and the king pin were knocked out of line. That's the last time I'll ever drive the Baja Race.

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 11th 9:56 PM
At least you've finished paying it off! Now you can invest that $1 a month on maintenance. It should only take you four years or so to pay off those two new tires...

bruce bailey 2008
User ID: 9690803 Feb 11th 11:44 PM
Don't you mean USED tires?

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1278884 Feb 12th 6:00 AM
Well, let the 'repo' man come and take the used tyres away, if you've finished with them...

Then you can buy new ones and start the cycle all over again !

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Feb 12th 11:03 AM
Three inch whitewalls. I read in the newspaper stack piled by my chair about these new tubeless "tyres". I'll have to look for them next time I shop at the W.T.Grant store.

Back 20 Messages

ukebert User ID: 9112483	Nov 11th 10:32 AM Well, I'm stripping my C Melody to clean the body and keys, and it's gone well. However, three of the rods are not accepting my screwdriver, they won't turn. Any suggestions? My only ideas are to apply key oil (but where?), or to spray the whole area with WD40 or similar and leave for a bit. However, I don't know what that would do to the plate. Regards, Owen
Jeff Frazier User ID: 9426023	Nov 28th 11:31 AM JB1, Call me @ 1-866-996-6394. I have some stuff here that works. I bought it just for "Katrina" type horns. I can give you some info on it. HIS, Jeff "Doc" Frazier www.JandJ_WOoodwinds.com
alan (uk) User ID: 1731514	Dec 3rd 9:12 PM So Jeff - don't the rest of us get to know what it is, this "stuff" ?
Jeff Frazier 07 User ID: 1327644	Dec 3rd 9:54 PM Alan (UK), It is a chemical call "In-Force" made by BG Products, Inc. It was made for the automotive industry. The best I have ever seen. Here is the link: http://www.bgprod.com/products/aerosol.html about 2/3 way down the page....#438 Just to give you an idea, the "Katrina" C that is on our site, after sterilizing the entire horn, soaked the keys and springs with a coat of In_Force, 30 minutes later it came apart and ALL of the springs out as if it had been kept in the closet for 80 years. Same thing with the Martin bari, a Martin alto sax, 2 clarinets and a Lyon and Healy trumpet in the same hurricane. HIS, Jeff www.JandJWoodwinds.com
alan (uk) User ID: 1731514	Dec 4th 4:16 AM Thanks (sincerely...). It is heartening to know that a lot of Martins survived 8-)) - of course, I'm happy for all the other makes as well ! Alan.
jazzbug1 2007 User ID: 0735934	Dec 4th 7:36 AM I sent for some "In-Force" per my conversation with Jeff. I'll let you all know how it worked. May the In-Force be with you.
ukebert User ID: 7928263	Dec 4th 7:48 AM I'm assuming it won't corrode the silver plate? Sounds like strong stuff.
Jeff 07 User ID: 1327644	Dec 4th 8:36 AM It doesn't hurt silver, gold or lac at all. HIS, Jeff
ukebert User ID: 7928263	Dec 4th 9:49 AM Very impressive.
Captain Beeflat 2007 User ID: 1738604	Dec 5th 5:35 AM Jazzbug. What you are doing sounds to be bordering on the desperate. Forgive me please for stating the obvious, but have you considered remaking the key tube with new brass tube? Presumably you must have stock of tube, axle rod & a selection of small taps and dies. A far better, cleaner, and more satisfying than relying on "Bodgex", "Fixit", or similar palliatives. Spark erosion is another, equally unsatisfactory solution. Some wise old Red Indian is alleged to have said "... it takes an hour to make a good arrow, and two hours to make a bad one..." Take heed.
jazzbug1 2007 User ID: 0735934	Dec 5th 7:31 AM I am building what I hope will be the first successful fusion reactor to re-create, atom by atom, these frozen keys.
Captain Beeflat 2007 User ID: 1738604	Dec 5th 7:55 AM Any chance of a sensible answer?
jazzbug1 2207 User ID: 0408214	Dec 8th 7:53 PM Frozen rod break through. I had five situations where the rods were frozen beyond anything two very well trained repairmen of thirty years experience each had ever seen. Doc Frazier's "In-Force" freed one up (Thanks, Doc-- great stuff). I was nearing the completion of the fusion reactor, when I remembered my two decades of work in non-ferrous metals, mostly precious and brass. Hmmm.. iron rod in brass casing. That's it! Unequal co-efficients of expansion, which means heat or cold will cause the brass to expand/contract more than the steel rod. I put them in the freezer, brought each one out and heated it. Tapped a hardened steel rod (cut off Allen wrench slightly smaller diameter than the rod)on the rod) and it slowly came out. This worked for all of them. It helps if you find a flat piece of steel in which you drill a hole the diameter of the rod. Place the brass tubing flush agaaist it, with the frozen rod facing into the drilled hole. Tap with a light hammer very straightly or you can bend the whole thing. I was ready to cut the tubing or run the reactor. Too bad I didn't run the reactor, as it would have been the greatest scientific breakthrough since controlled fission. Oh well, I'll just leave it in the yard. This Rudy soprano may have been a flood victim, as it came off Ebay, down South, and was poorly represented in a blurry photo. The clown tossed it in a box, did not insure it (I paid him for insurance). It arrived with the bell sticking through the box with some bad dents. I gave him bad feedback and will deal with him further after I start my world religion.
Captain Beeflat 2007 User ID: 1738604	Dec 9th 6:00 AM Rather more than differing coefficients of linear expansion I fear. Were this the case, then the application of heat would increase the annular clearance. The problem with using dis-similar metals is the electrolytic reaction between them...this can be as effective as welding! Best of luck. I still think that your best option is to remake the problem part with new tube & axle rod....cutting off & resoldering any linkages.
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 8th 12:19 AM Jazzbug: I was going to offer the freeze-and-heat method when I first saw this thread, glad to see you came to it on your own. This is also a trick often used to retrieve data off a hard drive that won't spin -- put it in a Ziploc bag in the freezer for a few hours, then try powering it up (cold, but still in the bag except for the bare minimum necessary to hook it up -- you don't want condensation) and try to get all the data off before it seizes up again. If it's feasible to run it inside the freezer, so much the better. The reason is similar, in that the bearings and the races are different metals that have different thermal expansion rates and this will sometimes get them to loosen up. Like the method you used on the sax, it only has to work once. Then you can replace the failed part(s).
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Feb 11th 2:58 PM I took my Studebaker for a hard drive: two flat tires and the king pin were knocked out of line. That's the last time I'll ever drive the Baja Race.
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 11th 9:56 PM At least you've finished paying it off! Now you can invest that $1 a month on maintenance. It should only take you four years or so to pay off those two new tires...
bruce bailey 2008 User ID: 9690803	Feb 11th 11:44 PM Don't you mean USED tires?
alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1278884	Feb 12th 6:00 AM Well, let the 'repo' man come and take the used tyres away, if you've finished with them... Then you can buy new ones and start the cycle all over again !
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Feb 12th 11:03 AM Three inch whitewalls. I read in the newspaper stack piled by my chair about these new tubeless "tyres". I'll have to look for them next time I shop at the W.T.Grant store.