C Melody Saxophone Forum

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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Repairs and Refurbishing / Missed anything obvious ?

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 14th 1:37 PM
Well, you wanted new topics.

I get quite a lot of useful info by reading the topics in the Saxontheweb "Repair" section, but don't like to comment much as I'm not that expert (by comparison to some) - or so I thought.

There was a topic about someone dismantling a Conn New Wonder, but had problems with stuck rods/screws.. After reading all the useful proferred 'freeing up' suggestions, I privately mailed the young dismantler and asked an obvious question - wanting to spare his blushes by asking on an open forum.

The question was "You do know about the little locking screws on the side of the pillars ? Are you trying to unscrew locked screws, by any chance ?"

He was, he hadn't notice the locking grubscrews, another Conn innovation........... Talk about experts missing the obvious.

So, what have you guys ever said "Doh !" about ?

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 14th 2:38 PM
Yes, those little mouse turd lock screws are indeed awkward.
Some years ago there was discussion on SOTW about a substitution. I mentioned that where they were missing, I wound cotton around the plain section in the thread of the swivel screw...the part to accommodate the lock screw. This increases the diameter and acts like a "Nyloc" nut, negating the need for the mouse turd lock screw.

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Feb 14th 3:45 PM
Noting down in my little notebook that a key was bent and then absent-mindedly bending the wrong one. On the tube as well, sheer idiocy. Took me over an hour to get it properly straight again :-(

bruce bailey 2008
User ID: 9690803 Feb 15th 12:51 AM
Doh! I wasn't watching that one too closely but I would have forgotten about the little screws.
When a pivot is too loose, I usuallyput some dental floss in the hole as I screw the pivot in. After it is in, I burn the excess off.

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 15th 3:48 AM
Bruce - I sometimes find it amazing (beyond belief) at the little fixes we do. Someone, somewhere, is confidently playing before thousands, courtesy of a little cotton or dental floss...

Or a decades-old sliver of cork, in an absolutely essential spot - just hanging on by a whisker, and falls off as soon as a screwdriver looks at the instrument !

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 15th 5:58 AM
Alan.
Can you think of any other manufactured item which uses the same materials and methods used 150 years ago?
Bruce's fix is almost identical to the one I outlined earlier; bound to work....useful too for that little adjuster screw which shuts G# when the RH stack is operated.
Have you checked the brakes on your car recently....same philosophy applies.

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Feb 15th 4:58 PM
At the risk of stirring things up Lewis, you will find that the materials and methods of producing and hanging Church Bells have not significantly changed in well over 150 years ;-) Although the tuning is normally more accurate as more is understood about the modes of a bell.

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 16th 2:43 PM
I think he was excluding all manner of instruments, not just saxophones. Still, I can think of one thing that hasn't changed in materials or basic construction methods, and that is "classic" furniture. Sure it's mechanically assisted in a way that was impossible 150 years ago, but that's true of our instruments as well. The making of handblown glass hasn't changed a whole lot in thousands of years.

Some things don't change because they evolve into a "local maximum". It then takes a revolutionary change to completely re-think the process, and there are some things (such as glass blowing) where the old method is just about perfected and nobody has thought of a better way yet. Still, a great deal of effort has gone into making the SAME thing, only cheaper (and often smaller, though instruments don't work that way).

Also, many of the improvements are better suited to small-scale production than mass production, as they don't scale well. Giant hydraulic presses are still the easiest and fastest way to turn flat sheets of metal into tubes with drawn tone holes, although CNC mills are wonderful for prototyping and small production runs.

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 17th 11:47 AM
I did fail to mention -- although the basic construction hasn't changed in 150 years, the specific details HAVE changed... just enough that someone would miss the differences and get crossed up, as is the case with the "mouse turd" locking screws. I've seen them before as well, but I wouldn't have thought of them without having the instrument in my hands.

My version of the dental floss trick is Teflon tape, the same kind used when threading together pipes. I don't see anything wrong with using dental floss though, if that's what you have (and I do, I use it on sloppy corks as Teflon tape is a bit too fragile for this).

My DOH! moments usually involve computers though. When they fail, the cause is usually the last part you think of, and the first you SHOULD have though of.

bruce bailey 2008
User ID: 9690803 Feb 18th 12:19 AM
My use of the dental floss is so you can just let it hang in the hole as you screw in the pivot. Old eyes such as mine like this!

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Feb 18th 7:15 AM
I use rubber cement on those little screws. My jokes haven't changed in 150 years, except I substitute "automobile" for horses and "moron" for "president". Hope J. Edgar Hoover isn't monitoring this forum, although I'm guessing the phrase "straight neck" will make him avert his eyes.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 18th 7:28 AM
Ukebert.
I do not think that church bells qualify as they are a simple casting, an eye to suspend it & a dangling rope yanked by some person so inconsiderate as to disturb anyone within ear shot.
Not a complex manufactured item.

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Feb 18th 12:38 PM
Your ignorance betrays you Bb, I take it that you haven't been up in a tower...

When you think that in an ancient stone tower one has to insert a frame capable of holding 8 or even 12 very heavy bells all swinging at once then I'm sure you can appreciate the stresses involved. Also remember that in English Church bell ringing the frame itself is remarkably complicated, it has a wheel and slider, bearings, pulleys and so on. This has to be extremelly accurate for the bell to swing nicely. The shape of the bell is also highly technical, the sound as you know is dictated by the shape. The composition again is important, there is a particular alloy which is usually used. Clapper design has been coming under scrutiny recently, with wood/steel clappers being tested.

It is a technical business. Perhaps not as technical as a car or a saxophone, but it is a complex manufactured item.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 18th 1:08 PM
It is a barbaric Medieval practice equalled only by witch burning. Your expression "bell swinging nicely" is an oxymoron on a level with Sports Diesel (diseasal) or vegetarian banquet.
My sons had sleep deprivation throughout the seventies because of this utterly selfish and pointless practice.
Carried out by brain dead geeks with no ambition, with ginger hair and still lived with their parents at 35.
The reaction from the church at every level was as uncaring as one would expect.
Compared with the church, the Mafia are a bunch of Sunday school teachers.

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Feb 18th 2:21 PM
I studied in religious school in Sicily, where we had the best of all three.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 18th 2:34 PM
JB1....Surely you mean least bad!

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Feb 18th 4:53 PM
Well, I see that I am to be unable to convince you about the merits of the discipline, however will you accept the engineering complexity of a ring of bells?

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 19th 4:12 AM
I am less concerned about the "merits of the discipline" (as you grandiloquently call it) than the utter distress that you are willing to inflict upon others. Others who have absolutely no redress thanks to the inflexibility & lack of compassion of the ****** church.
We have laws restricting the noise from motor vehicles....the church does not have to comply.
We have laws preventing noise at unreasonable times...the church does not have to comply.
It astonishes me that a superstitious & smug minority, with no evidence whatsoever, attempt to pollute us with their words and actions.
"Engineering complexity" of a puerile ring of bells.... A truly embarrassing statement...I can only assume that you are not an engineer...

ukebert
User ID: 7928263 Feb 19th 10:24 AM
Cap'n Bb, I am not one yet, with any luck I will be in 4 years time. And you cannot seriously say that swinging a bell the mass of a small car through over 400 degrees would not generate a significant force on the frame and tower...

ukebert
User ID: 7928263 Feb 19th 10:25 AM
I should add that we have absorptive panels in our bell-chamber and ring using a simulator (bells silenced and infra-red sensors used instead) when practicing. Even when living next door to one as it sounds like you did at one point one wouldn't notice the bells at all.

Next 20 Messages Newest 20 Messages

alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 14th 1:37 PM Well, you wanted new topics. I get quite a lot of useful info by reading the topics in the Saxontheweb "Repair" section, but don't like to comment much as I'm not that expert (by comparison to some) - or so I thought. There was a topic about someone dismantling a Conn New Wonder, but had problems with stuck rods/screws.. After reading all the useful proferred 'freeing up' suggestions, I privately mailed the young dismantler and asked an obvious question - wanting to spare his blushes by asking on an open forum. The question was "You do know about the little locking screws on the side of the pillars ? Are you trying to unscrew locked screws, by any chance ?" He was, he hadn't notice the locking grubscrews, another Conn innovation........... Talk about experts missing the obvious. So, what have you guys ever said "Doh !" about ?
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 14th 2:38 PM Yes, those little mouse turd lock screws are indeed awkward. Some years ago there was discussion on SOTW about a substitution. I mentioned that where they were missing, I wound cotton around the plain section in the thread of the swivel screw...the part to accommodate the lock screw. This increases the diameter and acts like a "Nyloc" nut, negating the need for the mouse turd lock screw.
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Feb 14th 3:45 PM Noting down in my little notebook that a key was bent and then absent-mindedly bending the wrong one. On the tube as well, sheer idiocy. Took me over an hour to get it properly straight again :-(
bruce bailey 2008 User ID: 9690803	Feb 15th 12:51 AM Doh! I wasn't watching that one too closely but I would have forgotten about the little screws. When a pivot is too loose, I usuallyput some dental floss in the hole as I screw the pivot in. After it is in, I burn the excess off.
alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 15th 3:48 AM Bruce - I sometimes find it amazing (beyond belief) at the little fixes we do. Someone, somewhere, is confidently playing before thousands, courtesy of a little cotton or dental floss... Or a decades-old sliver of cork, in an absolutely essential spot - just hanging on by a whisker, and falls off as soon as a screwdriver looks at the instrument !
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 15th 5:58 AM Alan. Can you think of any other manufactured item which uses the same materials and methods used 150 years ago? Bruce's fix is almost identical to the one I outlined earlier; bound to work....useful too for that little adjuster screw which shuts G# when the RH stack is operated. Have you checked the brakes on your car recently....same philosophy applies.
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Feb 15th 4:58 PM At the risk of stirring things up Lewis, you will find that the materials and methods of producing and hanging Church Bells have not significantly changed in well over 150 years ;-) Although the tuning is normally more accurate as more is understood about the modes of a bell.
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 16th 2:43 PM I think he was excluding all manner of instruments, not just saxophones. Still, I can think of one thing that hasn't changed in materials or basic construction methods, and that is "classic" furniture. Sure it's mechanically assisted in a way that was impossible 150 years ago, but that's true of our instruments as well. The making of handblown glass hasn't changed a whole lot in thousands of years. Some things don't change because they evolve into a "local maximum". It then takes a revolutionary change to completely re-think the process, and there are some things (such as glass blowing) where the old method is just about perfected and nobody has thought of a better way yet. Still, a great deal of effort has gone into making the SAME thing, only cheaper (and often smaller, though instruments don't work that way). Also, many of the improvements are better suited to small-scale production than mass production, as they don't scale well. Giant hydraulic presses are still the easiest and fastest way to turn flat sheets of metal into tubes with drawn tone holes, although CNC mills are wonderful for prototyping and small production runs.
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 17th 11:47 AM I did fail to mention -- although the basic construction hasn't changed in 150 years, the specific details HAVE changed... just enough that someone would miss the differences and get crossed up, as is the case with the "mouse turd" locking screws. I've seen them before as well, but I wouldn't have thought of them without having the instrument in my hands. My version of the dental floss trick is Teflon tape, the same kind used when threading together pipes. I don't see anything wrong with using dental floss though, if that's what you have (and I do, I use it on sloppy corks as Teflon tape is a bit too fragile for this). My DOH! moments usually involve computers though. When they fail, the cause is usually the last part you think of, and the first you SHOULD have though of.
bruce bailey 2008 User ID: 9690803	Feb 18th 12:19 AM My use of the dental floss is so you can just let it hang in the hole as you screw in the pivot. Old eyes such as mine like this!
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Feb 18th 7:15 AM I use rubber cement on those little screws. My jokes haven't changed in 150 years, except I substitute "automobile" for horses and "moron" for "president". Hope J. Edgar Hoover isn't monitoring this forum, although I'm guessing the phrase "straight neck" will make him avert his eyes.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 18th 7:28 AM Ukebert. I do not think that church bells qualify as they are a simple casting, an eye to suspend it & a dangling rope yanked by some person so inconsiderate as to disturb anyone within ear shot. Not a complex manufactured item.
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Feb 18th 12:38 PM Your ignorance betrays you Bb, I take it that you haven't been up in a tower... When you think that in an ancient stone tower one has to insert a frame capable of holding 8 or even 12 very heavy bells all swinging at once then I'm sure you can appreciate the stresses involved. Also remember that in English Church bell ringing the frame itself is remarkably complicated, it has a wheel and slider, bearings, pulleys and so on. This has to be extremelly accurate for the bell to swing nicely. The shape of the bell is also highly technical, the sound as you know is dictated by the shape. The composition again is important, there is a particular alloy which is usually used. Clapper design has been coming under scrutiny recently, with wood/steel clappers being tested. It is a technical business. Perhaps not as technical as a car or a saxophone, but it is a complex manufactured item.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 18th 1:08 PM It is a barbaric Medieval practice equalled only by witch burning. Your expression "bell swinging nicely" is an oxymoron on a level with Sports Diesel (diseasal) or vegetarian banquet. My sons had sleep deprivation throughout the seventies because of this utterly selfish and pointless practice. Carried out by brain dead geeks with no ambition, with ginger hair and still lived with their parents at 35. The reaction from the church at every level was as uncaring as one would expect. Compared with the church, the Mafia are a bunch of Sunday school teachers.
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Feb 18th 2:21 PM I studied in religious school in Sicily, where we had the best of all three.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 18th 2:34 PM JB1....Surely you mean least bad!
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Feb 18th 4:53 PM Well, I see that I am to be unable to convince you about the merits of the discipline, however will you accept the engineering complexity of a ring of bells?
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 19th 4:12 AM I am less concerned about the "merits of the discipline" (as you grandiloquently call it) than the utter distress that you are willing to inflict upon others. Others who have absolutely no redress thanks to the inflexibility & lack of compassion of the ****** church. We have laws restricting the noise from motor vehicles....the church does not have to comply. We have laws preventing noise at unreasonable times...the church does not have to comply. It astonishes me that a superstitious & smug minority, with no evidence whatsoever, attempt to pollute us with their words and actions. "Engineering complexity" of a puerile ring of bells.... A truly embarrassing statement...I can only assume that you are not an engineer...
ukebert User ID: 7928263	Feb 19th 10:24 AM Cap'n Bb, I am not one yet, with any luck I will be in 4 years time. And you cannot seriously say that swinging a bell the mass of a small car through over 400 degrees would not generate a significant force on the frame and tower...
ukebert User ID: 7928263	Feb 19th 10:25 AM I should add that we have absorptive panels in our bell-chamber and ring using a simulator (bells silenced and infra-red sensors used instead) when practicing. Even when living next door to one as it sounds like you did at one point one wouldn't notice the bells at all.