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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Repairs and Refurbishing / Missed anything obvious ?

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alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 14th 1:37 PM
Well, you wanted new topics.

I get quite a lot of useful info by reading the topics in the Saxontheweb "Repair" section, but don't like to comment much as I'm not that expert (by comparison to some) - or so I thought.

There was a topic about someone dismantling a Conn New Wonder, but had problems with stuck rods/screws.. After reading all the useful proferred 'freeing up' suggestions, I privately mailed the young dismantler and asked an obvious question - wanting to spare his blushes by asking on an open forum.

The question was "You do know about the little locking screws on the side of the pillars ? Are you trying to unscrew locked screws, by any chance ?"

He was, he hadn't notice the locking grubscrews, another Conn innovation........... Talk about experts missing the obvious.

So, what have you guys ever said "Doh !" about ?

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 21st 8:10 PM
There is no sacrilege in using synthetic pads, if you get good ones. I haven't given them a shot myself, though it may be worth it the next time I have to re-pad a larger instrument.

You may find that more modern pads make the horn less stuffy -- not just because of the better seal (though that will certainly have a lot to do with it), but because of the resonators in the middle of the pads that a lot of instruments lacked. The less exposed leather (or whatever is used on the synthetic pads, it's still soft) to absorb the sound, the better!

Steve.
User ID: 1007814 Feb 21st 8:30 PM
Excuse my ignorance but...
Don't they only ring them on sunday mornings?

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 22nd 4:34 AM
dch.
I do hope that you have not committed yourself to a $600 overhaul. Take a look at eBay & you will find C Melodys, in good condition for less that the cost of your overhaul.
I take it that you live in the Americas (church bands, and the fact that a relative owned one) where there are plenty available.

dch
User ID: 7810373 Feb 22nd 6:34 AM
Thanks Capt.
for your concern. No, I'm not committed yet, and yes, I've seen what's on ebay, and have also noticed that if it's in the shape I expect and want then I probably couldn't get it for much less than 3 - 4 hundred... and then that doesn't guarntee that I wouldn't need to have it adjusted and overhauled anyway, for something like 1 - 2 hundred.

Here I've got a straight neck, Conn 1923, with no dents, great carcass... for free. It would seem a shame not to resurrect the old girl,(are horns girls, like boats?).

If you have time check out www.deansanfordmusic.com and you can see what will be done, (if I do committ). Seems like a fair price for all that will be done.

I really do appreciate your advice and counsel...
I'm obviously a babe in the woods compared to all you guys.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 22nd 8:24 AM
dch.
It pleases me that, in your decision, you will return a long defunct & lovely horn back to it's rightful place.
Good choice...I just wanted to be sure that you knew the score...clearly you do. My very best wishes.
The Conn is possibly not the most robust sounding horn but it is built like a tank with arguably the slickest keywork.

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Feb 22nd 1:51 PM
All instruments are female. How baby grands come about i wouldn't like to guess however...

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 23rd 3:38 PM
"How baby grands come about i wouldn't like to guess" ?

Well, a Daddy piano and a Mummy piano play a little music together, and the tempo gradually increases until some sawdust from the Daddy piano passes into the Mummy piano - and then a little Baby piano is made....

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 24th 6:19 AM
In principle, I agree that instruments are female; but Alan's "Big Ugly" and my Grassi tenor are at the bearded lady end of the spectrum....they wear dungarees, have hairy legs, read the Guardian and roll their own cigarettes.

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 24th 5:35 PM
And both give off a peculiar odour, with complete disregard for their surroundings...

dch
User ID: 7810373 Feb 24th 10:09 PM
you guys are so funny. Clearly, in the history of bands, men, have ruled. But are there any women, chicks, that have outdone, out played men? Are there any women who play sax and are known for it? Can't think of any. Wonder why? On another subject, What about the old greats? Who was one of the better, or best categories? I vote for Tex Beneke. Forget his corney vocals, just his tone, his intonation... ah. And Glenn Miller?... What a great band and a great patriot... Do you realize what he gave up to serve his country in a great time of need? What do you guys think? Am I way off base? Out of date? Of course I am... I'm only 48 but I still have a great respect for those who came before us and paved the way. Let me know what you all think. Boy, from reconditioning and repairing to the old greats... I guess it connects. Who do you vote for in the old greats category?

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 25th 7:31 AM
A trick that always works against over ardent, in your face, feminists is to ask them to name five:-
Architects.
Painters.
Racing drivers.
Lead guitarists.
Saxophonists.
Sculptors...etc
When they have answered these with ease, ask them to name five female architects, painters...etc.
They usually become violent, burst into tear or use the age old excuse that " we do not have the same opportunity"....

alan (uk) '08
User ID: 1731514 Feb 25th 9:03 AM
dch - you may not know many of these players, they're from this side of the pond... Kathy Stobart, Candy Dulfer, Barbara Thompson, Josephine Davies, Alyson Cawley, Karen Sharp - just from memory.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 25th 9:31 AM
Alan. Yes, without doubt they are highly talented: but why have I never heard of them, yet the names Ben Webster, Stan Getz, Stanley Turrentine, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, John Coltrane,Coleman Hawkins, Sonny Rollins,et al, spring to mind? :-)

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 25th 10:03 PM
Race drivers? Shirley Muldowney, Danica Patrick, Melanie Troxel, Hillary Will, and Ashley Force (though she was kinda born into the sport)... and I'm not particularly a motorsports fan. They are out there, and they do become household names if they deserve to.

What I've always wondered is why there aren't more female jockeys. If being small is such a necessity, why not start with the half of the population that is, on average, smaller? Never could figure that one out.

I think the reason you don't see more household-name female musicians (outside of the pop world) is the same reason you don't see more female comedians, as explained by some of the female comedians themselves. They aren't generally as willing to put up with the crap of being on the road all the time and having no other life. Being a sax player is highly unlikely to vault you to the top of the music world, which might be why you WILL see women singing, playing piano, and more recently, playing guitar. Is it all that surprising they gravitate toward positions where they can call the shots and/or use their gender to advantage (like voice)? Being a touring musician sucks enough as it is, why be one only 5% of the audience even pays attention to?

Speaking of guitar... Carrie Brownstein (of Sleater-Kinney), Mary Kaye (who died last year but has a line of highly coveted Fender guitars -- or would you consider her role "not lead" because it wasn't rock?), Lori Linstruth (ok I'd never have heard of her if I wasn't from Los Angeles)... well that's only three but they're out there. Lots of non-lead "singer-songwriter" type female guitarists (or multi-instrumentalists) though. Also lots of "manufactured" Japanese "idol singer" girls who play their own instruments as well (though that's not why they're popular).

Interestingly, the Smashing Pumpkins have always had female bass players -- all three of them so far. This might be a practical thing, in that they are also expected to sing backup, and it wouldn't be very transparent to replace a woman's voice with a man's. Still interesting though.

Another factor is that you can get away with being an ugly male musician, or even make it work for you. Women generally do not have the same opportunity. No, it's not fair, but it does factor into this. Think about it. Alice Cooper. Gene Simmons. Frank Zappa. John Popper. They sure as hell weren't/aren't getting by on the basis of looks! Quick, name four ugly but popular female musicians!

Saxophonists, and non-classical horn players in general, not all that many. I think classical gets more women largely because of the NOT TOURING thing -- they can have a relatively normal life, which means the career isn't over the moment they want to have a family.

Painters, artists, sculptors -- I can't see a practical reason for women to be under-represented, but the fact is I can't name many people in the visual arts, period.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Feb 26th 4:31 AM
Just what I said..."no household names"...all in eight long paragraphs!

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Feb 26th 9:16 PM
I disagree on the drivers. Muldowney, at the least, is a recognizable name, as is Danica Patrick.

As for the guitarist part, the fact is that the people out front always stand a better chance of being a household name than the guitarist. For every Eddie Van Halen, there are twenty David Lee Roths.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 2999764 Feb 26th 10:46 PM
dch...I agree with you 100% about Tex Beneke. His tone was excellent and his solos were melodic and understandable to layman and musician alike. His playing inspired me to play the saxophone. (Which I have been doing professionally for 46 years now). After I was influenced by him, I progressed to Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, James Moody, Sonny Stitt, Paul Quinichette, Art Pepper, Bud Shank, Bob Cooper, Lennie Neihaus, Gerry Mulligan, George Young, Phil Woods, Zoot Sims, Billy Root, Lee Konitz, Paul Desmond, John Coltrane, JR Montrose, Ira Sullivan (Alto Sax and Flugelhorn), Jimmy Heath, Sonny Fortune, Wayne Shorter, Warne Marsh, Harold Land, Jane Ira Bloom (my only female influence, on Soprano Sax), Bobby Jasper (From Belgium), Johnny Dankworth (Cleo Lanes old man from England), Bill Trujilo from Woody Herman's Band, and a hundred more that I won't mention. Even though I knew him personally, I can't name Michael Brecker as an influence. He was a wonderful technician on the saxophone. But in my humble opinion; he played like a metronome (no doubt brought on by millions of hours of practice while using a metronome. If you listen closely to his playing (as I have for many hours on end) you will see that his eighth note and sixteenth note runs in his solos are perfect (ergo mechanical). I'm not trying to malign the dead. Just stating what I believe to be a fact. Some of my cohorts say it was lack of soul. I doubt that. Michael had PLENTY of soul. I just think he practiced too much. (Yes boys and girls, there is such a thing as too much practice). If you over practice legitimate scales and classical studies and reading. It can in some instances stifle your improvisational creativity, especially where Jazz and Blues are concerned among other heartfelt genres of music. Rhythm and Blues and Rock 'n' Roll also come to mind. I truly believe this, and I have enough listening and playing experience to voice these opinions with strong conviction. Some may not agree with me. But that is your prorogative. I mean no ill will. (Sorry I got carried away and took so much space}. Forgive me. Have a nice day!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 2999764 Feb 27th 12:43 AM
dch...I also agree with you about the Glen Miller Orchestra. It comes in second behind The Stan Kenton Orchestra. In my opinion, that is!

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Feb 27th 6:38 AM
I met Tex Beneke's son about ten years ago. He noticed I was playing the exact horn his dad used, Conn 10M with a Link Tonemaster mouthpiece, both from 1941. His son was very pleasant and I'm told his dad was. Tex was not the great jazz innovator or outstanding soloist. He just played and sang what the generally unmusical public liked with his big, fat sax tone and neighborly voice. The Miller band in general played simple charts with a very danceable sound that sold tens of millions of records for RCA. None of the soloists was outstanding, but everyone was solid. I played with a few ex-Miller sidemen many years ago. They fondly recalled the band, but felt that Miller was not very friendly and was a demanding leader, although they understood he had to be that way to be successful. Muggles-- I agree totally with you. Most extremely schooled, or formally taught players tend to play a systematic rather sterile style of jazz. All these conservatory grads may be technical wizards, but most I hear lack the feel. There is a stream of consciousness during a solo and when one is thinking very intently of the notes in the chord, or the proper way through a passage, I feel the solo becomes stuffy and overly technical. I tell my students to "follow the flow" of a song and don't worry much about theory. If it sounds good, it is good.
Rely on your talent. If you don't have a great ear, then become a great reader. My brother could read rings around me, but played like a typewriter, as he was almost tone deaf.

Back 20 Messages Next 20 Messages

alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 14th 1:37 PM Well, you wanted new topics. I get quite a lot of useful info by reading the topics in the Saxontheweb "Repair" section, but don't like to comment much as I'm not that expert (by comparison to some) - or so I thought. There was a topic about someone dismantling a Conn New Wonder, but had problems with stuck rods/screws.. After reading all the useful proferred 'freeing up' suggestions, I privately mailed the young dismantler and asked an obvious question - wanting to spare his blushes by asking on an open forum. The question was "You do know about the little locking screws on the side of the pillars ? Are you trying to unscrew locked screws, by any chance ?" He was, he hadn't notice the locking grubscrews, another Conn innovation........... Talk about experts missing the obvious. So, what have you guys ever said "Doh !" about ?
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 21st 8:10 PM There is no sacrilege in using synthetic pads, if you get good ones. I haven't given them a shot myself, though it may be worth it the next time I have to re-pad a larger instrument. You may find that more modern pads make the horn less stuffy -- not just because of the better seal (though that will certainly have a lot to do with it), but because of the resonators in the middle of the pads that a lot of instruments lacked. The less exposed leather (or whatever is used on the synthetic pads, it's still soft) to absorb the sound, the better!
Steve. User ID: 1007814	Feb 21st 8:30 PM Excuse my ignorance but... Don't they only ring them on sunday mornings?
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 22nd 4:34 AM dch. I do hope that you have not committed yourself to a $600 overhaul. Take a look at eBay & you will find C Melodys, in good condition for less that the cost of your overhaul. I take it that you live in the Americas (church bands, and the fact that a relative owned one) where there are plenty available.
dch User ID: 7810373	Feb 22nd 6:34 AM Thanks Capt. for your concern. No, I'm not committed yet, and yes, I've seen what's on ebay, and have also noticed that if it's in the shape I expect and want then I probably couldn't get it for much less than 3 - 4 hundred... and then that doesn't guarntee that I wouldn't need to have it adjusted and overhauled anyway, for something like 1 - 2 hundred. Here I've got a straight neck, Conn 1923, with no dents, great carcass... for free. It would seem a shame not to resurrect the old girl,(are horns girls, like boats?). If you have time check out www.deansanfordmusic.com and you can see what will be done, (if I do committ). Seems like a fair price for all that will be done. I really do appreciate your advice and counsel... I'm obviously a babe in the woods compared to all you guys.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 22nd 8:24 AM dch. It pleases me that, in your decision, you will return a long defunct & lovely horn back to it's rightful place. Good choice...I just wanted to be sure that you knew the score...clearly you do. My very best wishes. The Conn is possibly not the most robust sounding horn but it is built like a tank with arguably the slickest keywork.
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Feb 22nd 1:51 PM All instruments are female. How baby grands come about i wouldn't like to guess however...
alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 23rd 3:38 PM "How baby grands come about i wouldn't like to guess" ? Well, a Daddy piano and a Mummy piano play a little music together, and the tempo gradually increases until some sawdust from the Daddy piano passes into the Mummy piano - and then a little Baby piano is made....
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 24th 6:19 AM In principle, I agree that instruments are female; but Alan's "Big Ugly" and my Grassi tenor are at the bearded lady end of the spectrum....they wear dungarees, have hairy legs, read the Guardian and roll their own cigarettes.
alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 24th 5:35 PM And both give off a peculiar odour, with complete disregard for their surroundings...
dch User ID: 7810373	Feb 24th 10:09 PM you guys are so funny. Clearly, in the history of bands, men, have ruled. But are there any women, chicks, that have outdone, out played men? Are there any women who play sax and are known for it? Can't think of any. Wonder why? On another subject, What about the old greats? Who was one of the better, or best categories? I vote for Tex Beneke. Forget his corney vocals, just his tone, his intonation... ah. And Glenn Miller?... What a great band and a great patriot... Do you realize what he gave up to serve his country in a great time of need? What do you guys think? Am I way off base? Out of date? Of course I am... I'm only 48 but I still have a great respect for those who came before us and paved the way. Let me know what you all think. Boy, from reconditioning and repairing to the old greats... I guess it connects. Who do you vote for in the old greats category?
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 25th 7:31 AM A trick that always works against over ardent, in your face, feminists is to ask them to name five:- Architects. Painters. Racing drivers. Lead guitarists. Saxophonists. Sculptors...etc When they have answered these with ease, ask them to name five female architects, painters...etc. They usually become violent, burst into tear or use the age old excuse that " we do not have the same opportunity"....
alan (uk) '08 User ID: 1731514	Feb 25th 9:03 AM dch - you may not know many of these players, they're from this side of the pond... Kathy Stobart, Candy Dulfer, Barbara Thompson, Josephine Davies, Alyson Cawley, Karen Sharp - just from memory.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 25th 9:31 AM Alan. Yes, without doubt they are highly talented: but why have I never heard of them, yet the names Ben Webster, Stan Getz, Stanley Turrentine, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, John Coltrane,Coleman Hawkins, Sonny Rollins,et al, spring to mind? :-)
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 25th 10:03 PM Race drivers? Shirley Muldowney, Danica Patrick, Melanie Troxel, Hillary Will, and Ashley Force (though she was kinda born into the sport)... and I'm not particularly a motorsports fan. They are out there, and they do become household names if they deserve to. What I've always wondered is why there aren't more female jockeys. If being small is such a necessity, why not start with the half of the population that is, on average, smaller? Never could figure that one out. I think the reason you don't see more household-name female musicians (outside of the pop world) is the same reason you don't see more female comedians, as explained by some of the female comedians themselves. They aren't generally as willing to put up with the crap of being on the road all the time and having no other life. Being a sax player is highly unlikely to vault you to the top of the music world, which might be why you WILL see women singing, playing piano, and more recently, playing guitar. Is it all that surprising they gravitate toward positions where they can call the shots and/or use their gender to advantage (like voice)? Being a touring musician sucks enough as it is, why be one only 5% of the audience even pays attention to? Speaking of guitar... Carrie Brownstein (of Sleater-Kinney), Mary Kaye (who died last year but has a line of highly coveted Fender guitars -- or would you consider her role "not lead" because it wasn't rock?), Lori Linstruth (ok I'd never have heard of her if I wasn't from Los Angeles)... well that's only three but they're out there. Lots of non-lead "singer-songwriter" type female guitarists (or multi-instrumentalists) though. Also lots of "manufactured" Japanese "idol singer" girls who play their own instruments as well (though that's not why they're popular). Interestingly, the Smashing Pumpkins have always had female bass players -- all three of them so far. This might be a practical thing, in that they are also expected to sing backup, and it wouldn't be very transparent to replace a woman's voice with a man's. Still interesting though. Another factor is that you can get away with being an ugly male musician, or even make it work for you. Women generally do not have the same opportunity. No, it's not fair, but it does factor into this. Think about it. Alice Cooper. Gene Simmons. Frank Zappa. John Popper. They sure as hell weren't/aren't getting by on the basis of looks! Quick, name four ugly but popular female musicians! Saxophonists, and non-classical horn players in general, not all that many. I think classical gets more women largely because of the NOT TOURING thing -- they can have a relatively normal life, which means the career isn't over the moment they want to have a family. Painters, artists, sculptors -- I can't see a practical reason for women to be under-represented, but the fact is I can't name many people in the visual arts, period.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Feb 26th 4:31 AM Just what I said..."no household names"...all in eight long paragraphs!
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Feb 26th 9:16 PM I disagree on the drivers. Muldowney, at the least, is a recognizable name, as is Danica Patrick. As for the guitarist part, the fact is that the people out front always stand a better chance of being a household name than the guitarist. For every Eddie Van Halen, there are twenty David Lee Roths.
Captain Muggles User ID: 2999764	Feb 26th 10:46 PM dch...I agree with you 100% about Tex Beneke. His tone was excellent and his solos were melodic and understandable to layman and musician alike. His playing inspired me to play the saxophone. (Which I have been doing professionally for 46 years now). After I was influenced by him, I progressed to Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, James Moody, Sonny Stitt, Paul Quinichette, Art Pepper, Bud Shank, Bob Cooper, Lennie Neihaus, Gerry Mulligan, George Young, Phil Woods, Zoot Sims, Billy Root, Lee Konitz, Paul Desmond, John Coltrane, JR Montrose, Ira Sullivan (Alto Sax and Flugelhorn), Jimmy Heath, Sonny Fortune, Wayne Shorter, Warne Marsh, Harold Land, Jane Ira Bloom (my only female influence, on Soprano Sax), Bobby Jasper (From Belgium), Johnny Dankworth (Cleo Lanes old man from England), Bill Trujilo from Woody Herman's Band, and a hundred more that I won't mention. Even though I knew him personally, I can't name Michael Brecker as an influence. He was a wonderful technician on the saxophone. But in my humble opinion; he played like a metronome (no doubt brought on by millions of hours of practice while using a metronome. If you listen closely to his playing (as I have for many hours on end) you will see that his eighth note and sixteenth note runs in his solos are perfect (ergo mechanical). I'm not trying to malign the dead. Just stating what I believe to be a fact. Some of my cohorts say it was lack of soul. I doubt that. Michael had PLENTY of soul. I just think he practiced too much. (Yes boys and girls, there is such a thing as too much practice). If you over practice legitimate scales and classical studies and reading. It can in some instances stifle your improvisational creativity, especially where Jazz and Blues are concerned among other heartfelt genres of music. Rhythm and Blues and Rock 'n' Roll also come to mind. I truly believe this, and I have enough listening and playing experience to voice these opinions with strong conviction. Some may not agree with me. But that is your prorogative. I mean no ill will. (Sorry I got carried away and took so much space}. Forgive me. Have a nice day!
Captain Muggles User ID: 2999764	Feb 27th 12:43 AM dch...I also agree with you about the Glen Miller Orchestra. It comes in second behind The Stan Kenton Orchestra. In my opinion, that is!
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Feb 27th 6:38 AM I met Tex Beneke's son about ten years ago. He noticed I was playing the exact horn his dad used, Conn 10M with a Link Tonemaster mouthpiece, both from 1941. His son was very pleasant and I'm told his dad was. Tex was not the great jazz innovator or outstanding soloist. He just played and sang what the generally unmusical public liked with his big, fat sax tone and neighborly voice. The Miller band in general played simple charts with a very danceable sound that sold tens of millions of records for RCA. None of the soloists was outstanding, but everyone was solid. I played with a few ex-Miller sidemen many years ago. They fondly recalled the band, but felt that Miller was not very friendly and was a demanding leader, although they understood he had to be that way to be successful. Muggles-- I agree totally with you. Most extremely schooled, or formally taught players tend to play a systematic rather sterile style of jazz. All these conservatory grads may be technical wizards, but most I hear lack the feel. There is a stream of consciousness during a solo and when one is thinking very intently of the notes in the chord, or the proper way through a passage, I feel the solo becomes stuffy and overly technical. I tell my students to "follow the flow" of a song and don't worry much about theory. If it sounds good, it is good. Rely on your talent. If you don't have a great ear, then become a great reader. My brother could read rings around me, but played like a typewriter, as he was almost tone deaf.