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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Mouthpieces Reeds and Ligatures / bass sax: bar. M.P.

Next 20 Messages

jazzbug1
User ID: 0735934 Sep 19th 3:23 PM
I play the bass sax every so often. I use an original Woodwind Co. bass mouthpiece on my early 20s Conn. I have seen other players use a baritone mouthpiece. In US, the foremost player is Vince Giordano, who uses what looks like a modern Link Super Master tone. These players sound fine, but the sound is somewhat lacking in "fatness" due to the smaller chamber diameter. I assume the advantage is being able to play longer phrases. I tried several baritone MPs on my bass and had a very weak sound with intonation problems. Vince told me Adrian Rollini used a baritone MP. His sound was great, but I assume his MP was a typical Baritone of the day, with a large chamber. Anyone out there with experience on this topic?

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 19th 9:02 PM
jb1 - I understand that Jay Easton uses a Runyon jaguar 7 baritone mouthpiece, with a long face on it, because of the limited bass sax reed problem. Maybe you should email him and ask if he isn't bothered by having a weak sound ? (ha-ha)

Paul Coats wrote an excellent article on using bari mpcs with bass saxes - apparently it's all down to having the facing lengthened by about 5mm (that's just under a quarter-inch in Americanese) to get better response. You can read the article on the link below, as he says "The bass sax just needs more reed flapping!" -

http://www.bassic-sax.ca/mouthpieces1.html

There's more info in the Bassic Gear - Mouthpieces section. To quote from there "The modified bari piece (Runyon Model 88 ) has more volume and projection than the bass mouthpiece. As far as sound goes, the stock bass piece has a more classical tone, whereas the Runyon has more of an edgy tone, better suited to jazz music. Both mouthpieces respond equally well in all registers. Intonation is equal on both."

I assume the bari mpcs you tried had original (short) facings ?

I'm sure that the use of baritone mpcs on bass saxes is, as well, in some respects similar to us using alto or tenor mpcs on C-Mel, or Bb Sop mpcs on C-Sops. A degree of selection is required, some work, some don't. All down to either a relative shortage of choice, either specific mouthpieces or reeds, or just to find a better setup.

Pete Thomas, in the UK, (to quote from his website) owns and plays a Buescher Truetone bass (circa 1925) originally imported to England for Adrian Rollini to use when he was touring over here. Pete uses the original Toots Mondello mouthpiece refaced by Ed Pillinger and Rico 2.5 reeds. It is the same actual bass pictured on the front of the book The Bass Saxophone by Josef Skvorecky.

OK Castaway ?

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 19th 9:15 PM
Forgot to mention that the Toots Mondello mpc on the bass Rollini used over here is a 'baritone', albeit quite chunky - you can check that out here, with pics :

http://www.petethomas.co.uk/sx-07-bass.html

As Pete says on that page "This is the Toots Mondello Special Swing Club, New York baritone mouthpiece which came with the horn. I use a copy of this mouthpiece that has been refaced by Ed Pillinger with a wider tip opening"

Ah, a more modern copy ! Maybe the old one just tasted too bad, Ed Pillinger is an expert at reproducing modern copies from old mpcs.

jazzbug1
User ID: 0735934 Sep 20th 6:36 AM
Thanks Alan-- You are far more knowledgeable than I am on the technical things and you have intelligent humor. My wife thinks I am the greatest man in the world. I don't dare let her read your comments, or she would know I am lying. I tried ancient (what else would you expect?) baritone mouthpieces on my bass. I will check the links you supplied. Thank you very much.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 20th 7:46 AM
jb1 - I can't help thinking that your preference for quite close tip openings could be a limiting factor on the Bass - it does need a lot of reed-flap to fill that cavernous bell.

Did you ever check out the links to Bert Brandsma on the blog - you're very welcome there. I find it quaint but a little limiting here, no links or pics - as they say "One Picture is Worth Ten Thousand Words" - and no-one can tell me off for rambling on, in my own blog. ;-))

jazzbug1
User ID: 0735934 Sep 20th 8:42 AM
I'm not sure I have the wind (I certainly have it verbally) to fill a bass sax with a larger tip opening, say #5 or so. My bass mouthpiece looks typical at a #3 or 4 at the most. I would like to play longer phrases as I can on the baritone. Maybe I could hook up an auxilliary air pump into the mouthpiece ( powered by a Studebaker six). Thanks for the special attention. I feel flattered.

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Sep 20th 11:31 AM
I used a Runyon Comet 88 Baritone Sax mouthpiece that Paul Coats modified with a 29mm facing and a more open tip (don't recal the size at the moment). It played well on my 1926 Buescher Bass and had no problems with the intonation or sound quality. I used this is marching bands so liked the extra edge. I had no problems playing from Bb0 through Eb3. I liked this mouthpiece so much that I retired my Bass mouthpiece.

I did notice that the bari piece takes almost as much wind as the bass piece with the aforemention modifications. But I was able to use readily available Bari Star and Fibracell reeds!

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 20th 2:05 PM
You've maybe guessed that (given the 'puff' and new knees...) I'd play bass sax 'at the drop of a hat'.

You obviously both know that bass sax was favoured, not only in marching bands, but by early recording studios because it was the only bass instrument that the somewhat primitive recording equipment could pick up. The string bass made no impression (pun definitely intended) whatsoever....

jazzbug1
User ID: 0735934 Sep 20th 2:18 PM
I use bass sax because I still use mechanical recording equipment (several large horns). I have heard about the new electrical recording system developed by Western Electric, but I don't trust new stuff.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 20th 7:23 PM
I do wish that I could share your enthusiasm; you so obviously care for them.
To me, they are a sort of comedy item which requires the player to don a red nose and clown shoes. Added to that they are either archaic, expensive, or both.
People often ask "where do you play a C Melody", the obvious answer being anywhere...but the question is, in my view, valid when asked about a bass.
My brother depped on bass sax & clarinet for The Temperance Seven in the 50s & I used to carry the beastly thing on the London underground...this probably coloured my views. He bought the bass for thirty pounds and was delighted seven years later, to sell it for Ł50.
The bass can also be blown into the weeds by an electric string bass on half throttle.
Yet another handicap is transporting it; I have two cars, both two seaters, so anything larger than a tenor is out of the question.
However, I am pleased that someone cares for them...and Adrian Rollini did play them rather well.

jazzbug1
User ID: 1411674 Sep 24th 12:18 PM
I agree somewhat, that the bass is more of a novelty for its looks and low notes. The baritone is much more nimble for up-tempo solos. However, the bass does have a purpose. Many years ago, I played in a club that supplied free peanuts. Every time I left the stage on a break, I would have to shake the sax upside dowm to get rid of the peanuts thrown in by accurate customers. Once I found some lady's panties, so a Bass sax does have an important use.

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Sep 24th 12:39 PM
In my world, the Bass Sax goes where the Bari cannot. It easily replaces Sousaphones or Tubas in marching bands and is easier to carry and transport that a Tuba. The bass sax easily out-powers bass guitars when there are no electrical outlets available such as the acoustic only world of marching bands. As you have seen from the pictures of my marching band, I whole-heartedly embraced the line "I proudly took my place as the one and only bass..." from the showtune "76 Trombones". My marching band would not have had a bass line the last two years except for my bass saxophone. Sadly, we will have to use my Baritone Sax (after it is repaired) since I sold my bass for financial reasons.

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 24th 1:24 PM
It would be interesting to see how the 'Chinese basses' shape up, if anyone ever reviews them - they do offer them on a 'money back' basis, but the cost of shipping a bass sax back to China may not make that a practical option...

bruce bailey
User ID: 9690803 Sep 25th 12:28 AM
The problem I have with the ones from China is the price. You can usually find a decent vintage bass for $5K US. For reference, a bass sax will fit in the back seat of a 1962 Buick Lesabre with an inch to spare.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 25th 6:30 AM
Wade... You say..." the Bass goes where the Bari cannot". I say, the Bari will go in the back of an Audi TT, but the Bass cannot. :-)

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Sep 25th 1:24 PM
But the bass fit just fine in the back seat of my Ford Taurus. My F150 SuperCrew pickup can haul several people and their saxophones, even if all are basses!

As for an Audi TT, I guess we must consider our transportation when getting a saxophone. To quote Paul Cohen "The most important part of a bass saxophone is the logistics!" He is not kidding, you won't find me hauling a bass sax in my daughter's VW New Beetle (it barely can handle her Tenor!)

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Sep 25th 1:32 PM
Here's a nice picture of my (formerly mine) bass sax and the F150 used to haul it!

http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/bass.jpg

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 25th 2:14 PM
Colour co-ordinated, as well...... Wouldn't it have been cheaper to buy a case, rather than an F150 ?

alan (uk)
User ID: 0651814 Sep 25th 3:28 PM
All joking aside, anyone have a 'guesstimate' as to how many Bass's have been built over the years?

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Sep 26th 4:07 AM
Very impressive Wade. Presumably you buy "Silvo" in industrial quantities. Also impressed with your handbrake's ability hold your truck on such a slope. :-)

Next 20 Messages

jazzbug1 User ID: 0735934	Sep 19th 3:23 PM I play the bass sax every so often. I use an original Woodwind Co. bass mouthpiece on my early 20s Conn. I have seen other players use a baritone mouthpiece. In US, the foremost player is Vince Giordano, who uses what looks like a modern Link Super Master tone. These players sound fine, but the sound is somewhat lacking in "fatness" due to the smaller chamber diameter. I assume the advantage is being able to play longer phrases. I tried several baritone MPs on my bass and had a very weak sound with intonation problems. Vince told me Adrian Rollini used a baritone MP. His sound was great, but I assume his MP was a typical Baritone of the day, with a large chamber. Anyone out there with experience on this topic?
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 19th 9:02 PM jb1 - I understand that Jay Easton uses a Runyon jaguar 7 baritone mouthpiece, with a long face on it, because of the limited bass sax reed problem. Maybe you should email him and ask if he isn't bothered by having a weak sound ? (ha-ha) Paul Coats wrote an excellent article on using bari mpcs with bass saxes - apparently it's all down to having the facing lengthened by about 5mm (that's just under a quarter-inch in Americanese) to get better response. You can read the article on the link below, as he says "The bass sax just needs more reed flapping!" - http://www.bassic-sax.ca/mouthpieces1.html There's more info in the Bassic Gear - Mouthpieces section. To quote from there "The modified bari piece (Runyon Model 88 ) has more volume and projection than the bass mouthpiece. As far as sound goes, the stock bass piece has a more classical tone, whereas the Runyon has more of an edgy tone, better suited to jazz music. Both mouthpieces respond equally well in all registers. Intonation is equal on both." I assume the bari mpcs you tried had original (short) facings ? I'm sure that the use of baritone mpcs on bass saxes is, as well, in some respects similar to us using alto or tenor mpcs on C-Mel, or Bb Sop mpcs on C-Sops. A degree of selection is required, some work, some don't. All down to either a relative shortage of choice, either specific mouthpieces or reeds, or just to find a better setup. Pete Thomas, in the UK, (to quote from his website) owns and plays a Buescher Truetone bass (circa 1925) originally imported to England for Adrian Rollini to use when he was touring over here. Pete uses the original Toots Mondello mouthpiece refaced by Ed Pillinger and Rico 2.5 reeds. It is the same actual bass pictured on the front of the book The Bass Saxophone by Josef Skvorecky. OK Castaway ?
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 19th 9:15 PM Forgot to mention that the Toots Mondello mpc on the bass Rollini used over here is a 'baritone', albeit quite chunky - you can check that out here, with pics : http://www.petethomas.co.uk/sx-07-bass.html As Pete says on that page "This is the Toots Mondello Special Swing Club, New York baritone mouthpiece which came with the horn. I use a copy of this mouthpiece that has been refaced by Ed Pillinger with a wider tip opening" Ah, a more modern copy ! Maybe the old one just tasted too bad, Ed Pillinger is an expert at reproducing modern copies from old mpcs.
jazzbug1 User ID: 0735934	Sep 20th 6:36 AM Thanks Alan-- You are far more knowledgeable than I am on the technical things and you have intelligent humor. My wife thinks I am the greatest man in the world. I don't dare let her read your comments, or she would know I am lying. I tried ancient (what else would you expect?) baritone mouthpieces on my bass. I will check the links you supplied. Thank you very much.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 20th 7:46 AM jb1 - I can't help thinking that your preference for quite close tip openings could be a limiting factor on the Bass - it does need a lot of reed-flap to fill that cavernous bell. Did you ever check out the links to Bert Brandsma on the blog - you're very welcome there. I find it quaint but a little limiting here, no links or pics - as they say "One Picture is Worth Ten Thousand Words" - and no-one can tell me off for rambling on, in my own blog. ;-))
jazzbug1 User ID: 0735934	Sep 20th 8:42 AM I'm not sure I have the wind (I certainly have it verbally) to fill a bass sax with a larger tip opening, say #5 or so. My bass mouthpiece looks typical at a #3 or 4 at the most. I would like to play longer phrases as I can on the baritone. Maybe I could hook up an auxilliary air pump into the mouthpiece ( powered by a Studebaker six). Thanks for the special attention. I feel flattered.
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Sep 20th 11:31 AM I used a Runyon Comet 88 Baritone Sax mouthpiece that Paul Coats modified with a 29mm facing and a more open tip (don't recal the size at the moment). It played well on my 1926 Buescher Bass and had no problems with the intonation or sound quality. I used this is marching bands so liked the extra edge. I had no problems playing from Bb0 through Eb3. I liked this mouthpiece so much that I retired my Bass mouthpiece. I did notice that the bari piece takes almost as much wind as the bass piece with the aforemention modifications. But I was able to use readily available Bari Star and Fibracell reeds!
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 20th 2:05 PM You've maybe guessed that (given the 'puff' and new knees...) I'd play bass sax 'at the drop of a hat'. You obviously both know that bass sax was favoured, not only in marching bands, but by early recording studios because it was the only bass instrument that the somewhat primitive recording equipment could pick up. The string bass made no impression (pun definitely intended) whatsoever....
jazzbug1 User ID: 0735934	Sep 20th 2:18 PM I use bass sax because I still use mechanical recording equipment (several large horns). I have heard about the new electrical recording system developed by Western Electric, but I don't trust new stuff.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 20th 7:23 PM I do wish that I could share your enthusiasm; you so obviously care for them. To me, they are a sort of comedy item which requires the player to don a red nose and clown shoes. Added to that they are either archaic, expensive, or both. People often ask "where do you play a C Melody", the obvious answer being anywhere...but the question is, in my view, valid when asked about a bass. My brother depped on bass sax & clarinet for The Temperance Seven in the 50s & I used to carry the beastly thing on the London underground...this probably coloured my views. He bought the bass for thirty pounds and was delighted seven years later, to sell it for Ł50. The bass can also be blown into the weeds by an electric string bass on half throttle. Yet another handicap is transporting it; I have two cars, both two seaters, so anything larger than a tenor is out of the question. However, I am pleased that someone cares for them...and Adrian Rollini did play them rather well.
jazzbug1 User ID: 1411674	Sep 24th 12:18 PM I agree somewhat, that the bass is more of a novelty for its looks and low notes. The baritone is much more nimble for up-tempo solos. However, the bass does have a purpose. Many years ago, I played in a club that supplied free peanuts. Every time I left the stage on a break, I would have to shake the sax upside dowm to get rid of the peanuts thrown in by accurate customers. Once I found some lady's panties, so a Bass sax does have an important use.
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Sep 24th 12:39 PM In my world, the Bass Sax goes where the Bari cannot. It easily replaces Sousaphones or Tubas in marching bands and is easier to carry and transport that a Tuba. The bass sax easily out-powers bass guitars when there are no electrical outlets available such as the acoustic only world of marching bands. As you have seen from the pictures of my marching band, I whole-heartedly embraced the line "I proudly took my place as the one and only bass..." from the showtune "76 Trombones". My marching band would not have had a bass line the last two years except for my bass saxophone. Sadly, we will have to use my Baritone Sax (after it is repaired) since I sold my bass for financial reasons.
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 24th 1:24 PM It would be interesting to see how the 'Chinese basses' shape up, if anyone ever reviews them - they do offer them on a 'money back' basis, but the cost of shipping a bass sax back to China may not make that a practical option...
bruce bailey User ID: 9690803	Sep 25th 12:28 AM The problem I have with the ones from China is the price. You can usually find a decent vintage bass for $5K US. For reference, a bass sax will fit in the back seat of a 1962 Buick Lesabre with an inch to spare.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 25th 6:30 AM Wade... You say..." the Bass goes where the Bari cannot". I say, the Bari will go in the back of an Audi TT, but the Bass cannot. :-)
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Sep 25th 1:24 PM But the bass fit just fine in the back seat of my Ford Taurus. My F150 SuperCrew pickup can haul several people and their saxophones, even if all are basses! As for an Audi TT, I guess we must consider our transportation when getting a saxophone. To quote Paul Cohen "The most important part of a bass saxophone is the logistics!" He is not kidding, you won't find me hauling a bass sax in my daughter's VW New Beetle (it barely can handle her Tenor!)
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Sep 25th 1:32 PM Here's a nice picture of my (formerly mine) bass sax and the F150 used to haul it! http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/bass.jpg
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 25th 2:14 PM Colour co-ordinated, as well...... Wouldn't it have been cheaper to buy a case, rather than an F150 ?
alan (uk) User ID: 0651814	Sep 25th 3:28 PM All joking aside, anyone have a 'guesstimate' as to how many Bass's have been built over the years?
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Sep 26th 4:07 AM Very impressive Wade. Presumably you buy "Silvo" in industrial quantities. Also impressed with your handbrake's ability hold your truck on such a slope. :-)