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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Problems with low notes

Next 20 Messages

Eric
User ID: 0958254 May 3rd 7:46 PM
I can't seem to sound my low C without problems, or much below that- it the problem generally in the reed and mouthpiece, the instrument, or is it me (probably). My instrument is a Conn "Wolverine" stencil for Grinnell Bros, the mouthpiece is a Goldbeck hard rubber. I'm expecting a new mouthpiece and reeds from Aquilasax.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 May 3rd 8:23 PM
Eric....You probably have a pad leak. Drop a light down the saxophone body. (A clear Christmas bulb rated for whatever Country you're in, attached to an electric wire soldered onto a bulb holder will do). If you see light coming from the inside of thr horn, change or adjust that pad. Until all of the pads are seated. Then, try your new mouthpiece and reed. If you still have problems (and you shouldn't), experiment with different reeds, etc. until it's right. 90% of the time, difficulty getting low notes is usually associated with a leaky, out of adjustment horn! Sometimes it is because the reed strength is too hard. (Try a softer reed). I hope this advice helps.

Eric
User ID: 0958254 May 3rd 8:34 PM
I'll give it a try. I've had this repaired, but not completely overhauled. Still, might be reed troubles too- there are times when the notes sound well, and others when they just squeak. If I use the upper register everything plays well with the same fingering. The mouthpiece looks a little messy around the tip, someone might have tampered with it. I've tried a tenor mouthpiece but it made it worse.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 May 4th 6:02 AM
There is just a slight chance that it could also be the dreaded vintage sax "motorboating" effect. Although it is often down to not being able to get a steady/strong enough (without 'blasting' ) flow of air for the low notes.

This can be down to choice of mouthpiece/reed, even something like tuning or a leak. I've had it where the side Bb spring just wasn't quite strong enough (or combined with the pad not seating well enough), and the increased airflow just lifted it a 'gnats' on bell notes...

Have a search on saxontheweb for "motorboating" - interesting reading - players have put everything from a cork to a wooden egg in the bell to fix it ! I've never had to resort to any of that, as I said before, sometimes even adjusting the mouthpiece position a tad will fix it. You do often have to produce quite a larger volume of air, and 'feel for' the bell notes, like singing deep notes - after a while it becomes second nature.

Apologies, not meant to sound patronising if you know (or have tried) all this. I must put a section on motorboating (whether it's all in the mind or not...) on my Q&A page, thanks for the reminder.

JJ!@#$%^*()_+
User ID: 8332933 May 4th 7:35 AM
alan (uk) - Your advice, as usual is informative and logical. I agree with you 100%. Alan, you are one of the most knowledgeable chaps I've ever come across. (Muggles told me that I would discover that, if I paid attention) and I have. Cheers. Please forgive my past indescretions involving you. I appologize for my acid remarks. I'll join forces with you and try to help inform less knowledgeable sax players, just as you do. Cheers.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 May 4th 11:04 AM
JJ!@#$%^*()_+ - no probs, I've got a thick skin, and I give as good as I get, but glad that we agree - we've all a lot of hard-earned experience which should be passed on. No need to kepp re-inventing the wheel.

But you agreeing with me does leave me feeling a little insecure. :-))

Eric
User ID: 0958254 May 6th 7:20 PM
I got the Aquilasax mouthpiece and reeds Saturday. They sound fine- the mouthpiece sounds just like my old Goldbeck, but more reliable. The reeds sound great. Still having low C trouble. If I push the mouthpiece almost all the way on the cork it improves, slightly. As I close the pad the C will almost sound, then it will jump up in register and screech. Doesn't seem to matter if I blow hard or soft, if I have the mouthpiece far into my mouth or not- although if I put just the tip into my lips and blow gently I can get a C with a lot of motorboating. I'll take it back to the shop for a look for leaks. Thanks to everybody for the help.

ukebert
User ID: 9906923 May 7th 9:08 AM
Yep, a leak or dodgy setup somewhere.

Castaway
User ID: 9182423 May 7th 10:48 AM
Eric: Check the octave pad on the neck. Sometimes that is overlooked. Just a suggestion.

bruce bailey
User ID: 9670323 May 8th 12:30 AM
Also check the octave key pad on the body. Other common leak places are the small pad above the B and the G# not closing tightly.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 May 8th 7:36 AM
Might be difficult to spot unless you've a leak light or similar.

Try playing a very low note with both hands on, and get a friend to start from the top of the sax and press all the pads down in turn (obviously one at a time). the results can be astonishing if/when a leaky pad is found......

Tom
User ID: 0352454 May 20th 8:09 PM
I've encountered some older horns in my shop on which the body octave pip(the tube that protrudes into the bore of the horn) had become partially or completely unsoldered. That's a leak that's almost undetectable but will cause the same problem with the low C. Just another thought!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 May 20th 8:18 PM
Tom....That's advice I never heard of before. Thanks. I'm 68 years old and I learned something new and very useful today. That's why I love this forum. You never know what you'll learn if you just read these posts. Thank's again Tom.

Eric
User ID: 0958254 Jun 7th 7:59 PM
Update!
I took the horn back to the shop, just has a few bad pads, $50.00 will cover getting it into full operation. All things considered I've got about $400 in this (including initial cost and shipping) so I'm doing quite well.
As a sidebar, I'm now playing saxophone in my local Shrine Band- Alto, as they have no C mel parts. The other brother in the section plays a fine old Buescher tenor- battered but beautiful.

Jim B
User ID: 1913054 Jun 8th 7:55 AM
Eric, if you read bass clef you can take the alto part and pretend you are looking at a bass clef. Then you can play the part on C melody.You need to make flats and sharps changes of course. For Example, on the alto part if you see a 3d space C note it is Eb in the bass clef. I play C melody on the "String of Pearls" 3d alto solo all the time. Key of Ab on C melody in my arrangement.
You can also run the printed alto part through a computer and raise the alto notes a minor third.

ukebert
User ID: 8659853 Jun 8th 8:23 AM
$50 is fairly good, well done.

jazzbug1
User ID: 8332933 Jun 8th 1:34 PM
I lived one time in a leaky pad. Bad when it rained.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Jun 8th 2:21 PM
jazzbug1...It actually took me about 2 minutes to figure that one out. I MUST be getting senile!

ukebert
User ID: 8659853 Jun 8th 2:47 PM
I like your sense of humour jazzbug :-))

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Jun 9th 5:33 PM
jazzbug1...When I saw your first few posts a while back, I knew you would fit right in here on this forum. You keep me on my toes. Whenever I read one of your posts. I have to think about it and let it sink in in case there is a double entendre lurking in it somewhere. You're a cool guy and obviously experienced and knowledgeable about music and saxophones. Perhaps sometime in the near furure you will tell us who you are in real life and what you do. Although if you choose not to. Hey that's okay too. Just keep on being yourself.

Next 20 Messages

Eric User ID: 0958254	May 3rd 7:46 PM I can't seem to sound my low C without problems, or much below that- it the problem generally in the reed and mouthpiece, the instrument, or is it me (probably). My instrument is a Conn "Wolverine" stencil for Grinnell Bros, the mouthpiece is a Goldbeck hard rubber. I'm expecting a new mouthpiece and reeds from Aquilasax.
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	May 3rd 8:23 PM Eric....You probably have a pad leak. Drop a light down the saxophone body. (A clear Christmas bulb rated for whatever Country you're in, attached to an electric wire soldered onto a bulb holder will do). If you see light coming from the inside of thr horn, change or adjust that pad. Until all of the pads are seated. Then, try your new mouthpiece and reed. If you still have problems (and you shouldn't), experiment with different reeds, etc. until it's right. 90% of the time, difficulty getting low notes is usually associated with a leaky, out of adjustment horn! Sometimes it is because the reed strength is too hard. (Try a softer reed). I hope this advice helps.
Eric User ID: 0958254	May 3rd 8:34 PM I'll give it a try. I've had this repaired, but not completely overhauled. Still, might be reed troubles too- there are times when the notes sound well, and others when they just squeak. If I use the upper register everything plays well with the same fingering. The mouthpiece looks a little messy around the tip, someone might have tampered with it. I've tried a tenor mouthpiece but it made it worse.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	May 4th 6:02 AM There is just a slight chance that it could also be the dreaded vintage sax "motorboating" effect. Although it is often down to not being able to get a steady/strong enough (without 'blasting' ) flow of air for the low notes. This can be down to choice of mouthpiece/reed, even something like tuning or a leak. I've had it where the side Bb spring just wasn't quite strong enough (or combined with the pad not seating well enough), and the increased airflow just lifted it a 'gnats' on bell notes... Have a search on saxontheweb for "motorboating" - interesting reading - players have put everything from a cork to a wooden egg in the bell to fix it ! I've never had to resort to any of that, as I said before, sometimes even adjusting the mouthpiece position a tad will fix it. You do often have to produce quite a larger volume of air, and 'feel for' the bell notes, like singing deep notes - after a while it becomes second nature. Apologies, not meant to sound patronising if you know (or have tried) all this. I must put a section on motorboating (whether it's all in the mind or not...) on my Q&A page, thanks for the reminder.
JJ!@#$%^()_+ User ID: 8332933*	May 4th 7:35 AM alan (uk) - Your advice, as usual is informative and logical. I agree with you 100%. Alan, you are one of the most knowledgeable chaps I've ever come across. (Muggles told me that I would discover that, if I paid attention) and I have. Cheers. Please forgive my past indescretions involving you. I appologize for my acid remarks. I'll join forces with you and try to help inform less knowledgeable sax players, just as you do. Cheers.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	May 4th 11:04 AM JJ!@#$%^*()_+ - no probs, I've got a thick skin, and I give as good as I get, but glad that we agree - we've all a lot of hard-earned experience which should be passed on. No need to kepp re-inventing the wheel. But you agreeing with me does leave me feeling a little insecure. :-))
Eric User ID: 0958254	May 6th 7:20 PM I got the Aquilasax mouthpiece and reeds Saturday. They sound fine- the mouthpiece sounds just like my old Goldbeck, but more reliable. The reeds sound great. Still having low C trouble. If I push the mouthpiece almost all the way on the cork it improves, slightly. As I close the pad the C will almost sound, then it will jump up in register and screech. Doesn't seem to matter if I blow hard or soft, if I have the mouthpiece far into my mouth or not- although if I put just the tip into my lips and blow gently I can get a C with a lot of motorboating. I'll take it back to the shop for a look for leaks. Thanks to everybody for the help.
ukebert User ID: 9906923	May 7th 9:08 AM Yep, a leak or dodgy setup somewhere.
Castaway User ID: 9182423	May 7th 10:48 AM Eric: Check the octave pad on the neck. Sometimes that is overlooked. Just a suggestion.
bruce bailey User ID: 9670323	May 8th 12:30 AM Also check the octave key pad on the body. Other common leak places are the small pad above the B and the G# not closing tightly.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	May 8th 7:36 AM Might be difficult to spot unless you've a leak light or similar. Try playing a very low note with both hands on, and get a friend to start from the top of the sax and press all the pads down in turn (obviously one at a time). the results can be astonishing if/when a leaky pad is found......
Tom User ID: 0352454	May 20th 8:09 PM I've encountered some older horns in my shop on which the body octave pip(the tube that protrudes into the bore of the horn) had become partially or completely unsoldered. That's a leak that's almost undetectable but will cause the same problem with the low C. Just another thought!
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	May 20th 8:18 PM Tom....That's advice I never heard of before. Thanks. I'm 68 years old and I learned something new and very useful today. That's why I love this forum. You never know what you'll learn if you just read these posts. Thank's again Tom.
Eric User ID: 0958254	Jun 7th 7:59 PM Update! I took the horn back to the shop, just has a few bad pads, $50.00 will cover getting it into full operation. All things considered I've got about $400 in this (including initial cost and shipping) so I'm doing quite well. As a sidebar, I'm now playing saxophone in my local Shrine Band- Alto, as they have no C mel parts. The other brother in the section plays a fine old Buescher tenor- battered but beautiful.
Jim B User ID: 1913054	Jun 8th 7:55 AM Eric, if you read bass clef you can take the alto part and pretend you are looking at a bass clef. Then you can play the part on C melody.You need to make flats and sharps changes of course. For Example, on the alto part if you see a 3d space C note it is Eb in the bass clef. I play C melody on the "String of Pearls" 3d alto solo all the time. Key of Ab on C melody in my arrangement. You can also run the printed alto part through a computer and raise the alto notes a minor third.
ukebert User ID: 8659853	Jun 8th 8:23 AM $50 is fairly good, well done.
jazzbug1 User ID: 8332933	Jun 8th 1:34 PM I lived one time in a leaky pad. Bad when it rained.
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Jun 8th 2:21 PM jazzbug1...It actually took me about 2 minutes to figure that one out. I MUST be getting senile!
ukebert User ID: 8659853	Jun 8th 2:47 PM I like your sense of humour jazzbug :-))
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Jun 9th 5:33 PM jazzbug1...When I saw your first few posts a while back, I knew you would fit right in here on this forum. You keep me on my toes. Whenever I read one of your posts. I have to think about it and let it sink in in case there is a double entendre lurking in it somewhere. You're a cool guy and obviously experienced and knowledgeable about music and saxophones. Perhaps sometime in the near furure you will tell us who you are in real life and what you do. Although if you choose not to. Hey that's okay too. Just keep on being yourself.