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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Conn Curved-Neck "Improvements"?

Stacey Bowling
User ID: 9363883 Dec 8th 1:48 PM
I would like input from you, my esteemed friends. I've sent my C-mel to a friend, a tech, as mentioned elsewhere, and I'm making a "wish list" of things to address. Your thoughts are welcomed, on the following and on anything I may have missed. Good pads, felts, and springs are of course assumed, so I didn't mention them here:

1. Neckstrap ring. This is way too high on the body, resulting in a very unbalanced sax and an uncomfortably shortened neckstrap. Is there a way to lower this, or to add a second one while leaving the first intact?

2. Ergonomics. Overall the horn just has uncomfortable ergonomics. It's almost as if the horn is an 86 year old design or something! Any specific recommendations on things you've done, or seen done, that helped? (Remember, my other horns are a 1980 Selmer, a 1999 Selmer, and a 2003 Cannonball, so I'm not used to older keywork.)

3. Bad intonation and tone quality in the middle register. In my opinion, the horn has a very full, nice sound from about low F down to low Bb. And up top is great, too - anything from maybe G2 up to F3 sounds clear and strong, and not thin or weak. But the middle range, especially B2,C2,C#2,D2, sounds thin and "goatlike" and what I will politely call "intonationally challenged". Any specific recommendations?

I am determined to make this a horn that is playable, and PUBLICLY playable. It is structurally solid with no dents or major issues, has a lot of "tonal potential", and has all the right extras - a Morgan mouthpiece, a stock of Hemke and Classique reeds, a nice, new DEG case. Most importantly, it has a patient owner, one who is willing to do everything possible to make this into a useful saxophone.

Any advice, or additions to my wish list, would be appreciated.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 8th 3:06 PM
Stacey....I had the same problem; getting an old Conn C tenor as slick as a modern horn.
1/ Move strap ring down about 1 1/2" &
2/ Make up a G# key as on mine (you can see it on Alan's site under "saxy links". Ergonomically enlarging the G# key & coupling it to low C# TRANSFORMS the horn....it is as fast & slick as any modern sax out there....I promise you. You will never again have to perform contortions to get low C# & your finger will never slip off G#
3/ Enlarge, & sculpt to your finger the low Eb.
I cannot emphasise these mods. enough.
I promise that you will be delighted.

I really, really know what you mean about the fingering on vintage horns....I now no longer have to draw a deep breath when swapping from a modern tenor to my 85 year old C tenor.

Stacey Bowling
User ID: 9363883 Dec 8th 3:20 PM
Is yours a curved neck, or straight neck, just out of curiosity?

Any suggestions on #3, the goatlike register?

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Dec 8th 3:59 PM
Stacey - I think your friend with the leak-light may have some effect on #3 the goat-register. Although why those leaks don't affect your low tones will probably always be a mystery.

If he doesn't de-goat it, then it's a unique talent you have - cherish it.....

Stacey Bowling
User ID: 9363883 Dec 8th 4:57 PM
The leaks DO affect the low tones - to play the low tones I have to use my patented Iron Grip technique. For whatever reason, the middle register still sounds crappy (in my opinion) even WITH the Iron Grip.

I suppose it's possible that some of the middle tones sound goatish because maybe the previous hack (not me, the real repairman) set key heights all wrong, or something. Time will tell.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Dec 8th 5:27 PM
Stacey - I still have problems coming to terms with 'goatism'. Leaks and openings mostly affect the clarity of the sound, the intonation, or ease of production - all else comes from reed/mpc or player.

That's not meant to be critical of you, just that I really have difficulty with the goat concept. Maybe it's the sound finally being produced after some 'iron grip' effort, back to seating again.

The results will be interesting.

Graeme NZ
User ID: 9245273 Dec 8th 6:59 PM
Lewis is right. Moving the neck strap ring is the most important thing because the when you get the sax hanging correctly your fingers aren't busy holding the sax in the correct position, and getting rid of the leaks and the need for the "iron grip" will help a lot there too. Why not go for a multiple strap ring like my King Zephyr? I've got a similar setup on my C-tenor using a nylon bootlace tied to the existing ring and a key mounting post lower down. It made a HUGE difference to the finger ergonomics.

Lewis mods to the pinky keys would be good too if you want to get it perfect.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 9th 4:55 AM
Stacey.......Originally it was a straight neck, to which I fitted a curved neck (a bit of horse trading between Alan & myself) for two reasons....To get rid of the microtuner, enabling me to fit a "proper" ie. tenor mouthpiece; & I just do not like the playing position with the girlie alto neck....also, in my eyes, the curved neck just looks better.
I forgot to mention that Alan's site is cmelodysax.co.uk
Oh, & congratulations on the future PhD....a real degree & a real subject...stick at it.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 9th 5:07 AM
Forgot to mention Stacey that the Res-O-Pads, following some awkward fitting experiences & a period of shaking down when the leak light was plugged in permanently, are now fine.....I still think that they are a good idea; especially as they can be initially adjusted without dismantling the horn...a simple tweak with a small screwdriver is all that is required. I hope to be able to say the same in one year's time!

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Dec 9th 6:28 AM
I have to interject (old cornish custom..) here and say that Buescher Snap-ins are by far the better 'instant option'. Like Res-O's they can be changed in situ, any unevenness fixed with partial sticky additions to the back of the pad (masking tape or similar) but that's not very often.

And I tend to put a tiny dot on the leather in line with the cup arm, in case of any offsets and to make sure the pad goes back in correctly aligned. If paranoid about movement, the final seating can be with a little liquid shellac on the back, but not really needed. Pure luxury !

Here endeth the Buescher Snap-in commercial.....

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 9th 7:14 AM
On the way to a ferry the other week I passed "Tucker Towers" (the deer park end, with the view of the western Ogee gable & the Gazebo) & was surprised not to smell warm shellac....now I know that you must have been dealing with "Snap In" pads....by far the best system in my view.....& I have used all three methods.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Dec 9th 11:18 AM
You just can't get the staff these days, Lewis - I told the estate workers in the East Paddock to keep an eye out for your 4x4, but they were all obviously shirking.... Time to increase the rent, I think !

Windcraft do a handy 20 gm. pot of liquid shellac for Ł1.50 - in another life I'd swear it was a film canister full... - one ordered with each set of pads works out fine (and fits thro' the letterbox, so no trips to the sorting office) - otherwise I use the '600' craft glue, it sets slow enough to mess with seating. No bubbling shellac here, I'm afraid.

For our colonial friends, I should explain that in the UK we get mail actually delivered thro' a flap in the door - no mailboxes at the end of the garden for us - newspapers get delivered the same way, through the letterbox with loving care, not thrown from the road into a flower bed....

Stacey Bowling
User ID: 9363883 Dec 9th 2:12 PM
My friend is a bit worried that if he moves the neckstrap ring, it will leave behind a very ugly site, and he is I think also worried that the NEW site may look less than good. Any advice for him?

What a person needs is one that is "hose clamp" style, but more attractive. Some sort of a band with an integrated ring. I would think something along those lines could be quickly fitted and tightened around the body tube (if the toneholes could be avoided), and might be reasonably easy to secure in place. Anybody ever seen such a thing? Just wondering out loud - there are no doubt dozens of reasons why such a thing would be a bad invention... and I don't have a sax close at hand to see if such a thing would even be feasible...

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 9th 2:24 PM
Stacey....Yes, I did consider just such a mod on my Buescher.........sadly it's a bodge & was rejected almost immediately. Why not fit a second, preferably identical, ring plate below the original. At least then no ugly scar would shew...and the original ring would be there for masochists to use.
OR, paint the sax black, which would hide the ugly scar. :-))

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Dec 10th 4:04 AM
Stacey, Lewis, I found an interesting 'ring adjuster' (no comment) on an internet trawl, and have linked out to it from my resources page, but if you go to -

http://www.codera.com/index.html

and click on 'Products', it's "The Codera ADDjust® Balancer".

Might be neat for one of us with some 'disposable income' ( Stacey ? :-) to evaluate it for this forum.... I'm interested in the strap system that just unclips, I always seem to un-adjust mine getting it over the head (again, no comments please...)

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Dec 10th 5:15 AM
That is the type of device that Anke made from Meccano....a couple of plates clamped to the standard ring hook incorporating alternative, lower, ring holes down the plates. Quite a clumsy "solution".

Veda
User ID: 0067194 May 30th 11:32 AM
Just Popped in to say hello Stacey

Stacey Bowling User ID: 9363883	Dec 8th 1:48 PM I would like input from you, my esteemed friends. I've sent my C-mel to a friend, a tech, as mentioned elsewhere, and I'm making a "wish list" of things to address. Your thoughts are welcomed, on the following and on anything I may have missed. Good pads, felts, and springs are of course assumed, so I didn't mention them here: 1. Neckstrap ring. This is way too high on the body, resulting in a very unbalanced sax and an uncomfortably shortened neckstrap. Is there a way to lower this, or to add a second one while leaving the first intact? 2. Ergonomics. Overall the horn just has uncomfortable ergonomics. It's almost as if the horn is an 86 year old design or something! Any specific recommendations on things you've done, or seen done, that helped? (Remember, my other horns are a 1980 Selmer, a 1999 Selmer, and a 2003 Cannonball, so I'm not used to older keywork.) 3. Bad intonation and tone quality in the middle register. In my opinion, the horn has a very full, nice sound from about low F down to low Bb. And up top is great, too - anything from maybe G2 up to F3 sounds clear and strong, and not thin or weak. But the middle range, especially B2,C2,C#2,D2, sounds thin and "goatlike" and what I will politely call "intonationally challenged". Any specific recommendations? I am determined to make this a horn that is playable, and PUBLICLY playable. It is structurally solid with no dents or major issues, has a lot of "tonal potential", and has all the right extras - a Morgan mouthpiece, a stock of Hemke and Classique reeds, a nice, new DEG case. Most importantly, it has a patient owner, one who is willing to do everything possible to make this into a useful saxophone. Any advice, or additions to my wish list, would be appreciated.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 8th 3:06 PM Stacey....I had the same problem; getting an old Conn C tenor as slick as a modern horn. 1/ Move strap ring down about 1 1/2" & 2/ Make up a G# key as on mine (you can see it on Alan's site under "saxy links". Ergonomically enlarging the G# key & coupling it to low C# TRANSFORMS the horn....it is as fast & slick as any modern sax out there....I promise you. You will never again have to perform contortions to get low C# & your finger will never slip off G# 3/ Enlarge, & sculpt to your finger the low Eb. I cannot emphasise these mods. enough. I promise that you will be delighted. I really, really know what you mean about the fingering on vintage horns....I now no longer have to draw a deep breath when swapping from a modern tenor to my 85 year old C tenor.
Stacey Bowling User ID: 9363883	Dec 8th 3:20 PM Is yours a curved neck, or straight neck, just out of curiosity? Any suggestions on #3, the goatlike register?
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Dec 8th 3:59 PM Stacey - I think your friend with the leak-light may have some effect on #3 the goat-register. Although why those leaks don't affect your low tones will probably always be a mystery. If he doesn't de-goat it, then it's a unique talent you have - cherish it.....
Stacey Bowling User ID: 9363883	Dec 8th 4:57 PM The leaks DO affect the low tones - to play the low tones I have to use my patented Iron Grip technique. For whatever reason, the middle register still sounds crappy (in my opinion) even WITH the Iron Grip. I suppose it's possible that some of the middle tones sound goatish because maybe the previous hack (not me, the real repairman) set key heights all wrong, or something. Time will tell.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Dec 8th 5:27 PM Stacey - I still have problems coming to terms with 'goatism'. Leaks and openings mostly affect the clarity of the sound, the intonation, or ease of production - all else comes from reed/mpc or player. That's not meant to be critical of you, just that I really have difficulty with the goat concept. Maybe it's the sound finally being produced after some 'iron grip' effort, back to seating again. The results will be interesting.
Graeme NZ User ID: 9245273	Dec 8th 6:59 PM Lewis is right. Moving the neck strap ring is the most important thing because the when you get the sax hanging correctly your fingers aren't busy holding the sax in the correct position, and getting rid of the leaks and the need for the "iron grip" will help a lot there too. Why not go for a multiple strap ring like my King Zephyr? I've got a similar setup on my C-tenor using a nylon bootlace tied to the existing ring and a key mounting post lower down. It made a HUGE difference to the finger ergonomics. Lewis mods to the pinky keys would be good too if you want to get it perfect.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 9th 4:55 AM Stacey.......Originally it was a straight neck, to which I fitted a curved neck (a bit of horse trading between Alan & myself) for two reasons....To get rid of the microtuner, enabling me to fit a "proper" ie. tenor mouthpiece; & I just do not like the playing position with the girlie alto neck....also, in my eyes, the curved neck just looks better. I forgot to mention that Alan's site is cmelodysax.co.uk Oh, & congratulations on the future PhD....a real degree & a real subject...stick at it.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 9th 5:07 AM Forgot to mention Stacey that the Res-O-Pads, following some awkward fitting experiences & a period of shaking down when the leak light was plugged in permanently, are now fine.....I still think that they are a good idea; especially as they can be initially adjusted without dismantling the horn...a simple tweak with a small screwdriver is all that is required. I hope to be able to say the same in one year's time!
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Dec 9th 6:28 AM I have to interject (old cornish custom..) here and say that Buescher Snap-ins are by far the better 'instant option'. Like Res-O's they can be changed in situ, any unevenness fixed with partial sticky additions to the back of the pad (masking tape or similar) but that's not very often. And I tend to put a tiny dot on the leather in line with the cup arm, in case of any offsets and to make sure the pad goes back in correctly aligned. If paranoid about movement, the final seating can be with a little liquid shellac on the back, but not really needed. Pure luxury ! Here endeth the Buescher Snap-in commercial.....
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 9th 7:14 AM On the way to a ferry the other week I passed "Tucker Towers" (the deer park end, with the view of the western Ogee gable & the Gazebo) & was surprised not to smell warm shellac....now I know that you must have been dealing with "Snap In" pads....by far the best system in my view.....& I have used all three methods.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Dec 9th 11:18 AM You just can't get the staff these days, Lewis - I told the estate workers in the East Paddock to keep an eye out for your 4x4, but they were all obviously shirking.... Time to increase the rent, I think ! Windcraft do a handy 20 gm. pot of liquid shellac for Ł1.50 - in another life I'd swear it was a film canister full... - one ordered with each set of pads works out fine (and fits thro' the letterbox, so no trips to the sorting office) - otherwise I use the '600' craft glue, it sets slow enough to mess with seating. No bubbling shellac here, I'm afraid. For our colonial friends, I should explain that in the UK we get mail actually delivered thro' a flap in the door - no mailboxes at the end of the garden for us - newspapers get delivered the same way, through the letterbox with loving care, not thrown from the road into a flower bed....
Stacey Bowling User ID: 9363883	Dec 9th 2:12 PM My friend is a bit worried that if he moves the neckstrap ring, it will leave behind a very ugly site, and he is I think also worried that the NEW site may look less than good. Any advice for him? What a person needs is one that is "hose clamp" style, but more attractive. Some sort of a band with an integrated ring. I would think something along those lines could be quickly fitted and tightened around the body tube (if the toneholes could be avoided), and might be reasonably easy to secure in place. Anybody ever seen such a thing? Just wondering out loud - there are no doubt dozens of reasons why such a thing would be a bad invention... and I don't have a sax close at hand to see if such a thing would even be feasible...
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 9th 2:24 PM Stacey....Yes, I did consider just such a mod on my Buescher.........sadly it's a bodge & was rejected almost immediately. Why not fit a second, preferably identical, ring plate below the original. At least then no ugly scar would shew...and the original ring would be there for masochists to use. OR, paint the sax black, which would hide the ugly scar. :-))
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Dec 10th 4:04 AM Stacey, Lewis, I found an interesting 'ring adjuster' (no comment) on an internet trawl, and have linked out to it from my resources page, but if you go to - http://www.codera.com/index.html and click on 'Products', it's "The Codera ADDjust® Balancer". Might be neat for one of us with some 'disposable income' ( Stacey ? :-) to evaluate it for this forum.... I'm interested in the strap system that just unclips, I always seem to un-adjust mine getting it over the head (again, no comments please...)
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Dec 10th 5:15 AM That is the type of device that Anke made from Meccano....a couple of plates clamped to the standard ring hook incorporating alternative, lower, ring holes down the plates. Quite a clumsy "solution".
Veda User ID: 0067194	May 30th 11:32 AM Just Popped in to say hello Stacey