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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / stencils

Next 20 Messages

blue9girl9
User ID: 8910463 Apr 25th 8:59 AM
How does one determine what kind of C Melody one has?! I have an American Wurlitzer. It says 1914 on it with serial # 1119954. It's satin silver with a gold bell. I have a hunch it's a Beuscher stencil, but I would like to know for sure.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 25th 9:04 AM
Does it have a shaped 'fin' under the bow, and (often) also under the neck, like this Buescher stencil ?

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/LH-amerprof.htm

You'll need to copy & paste the link into your browser, as this site doesn't support links etc.

blue9girl9
User ID: 8910463 Apr 25th 9:16 AM
no, it's just plain. it has mother of pearl inlays on the keys and the twirly things on the Eb key are mother of pearl also (twirly things... i'm not very technical!) It also has W6789 engraved on it and the letter "L". i suppose i should take some pictures. i will do that.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 25th 10:14 AM
bluegirl9 - there are links to three other websites, which explain about 'which stencil' from this link on my website -

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/question-answer.htm#stencil

In particular ( on the saxpics site ) scroll down and check out the links to pics of the bevelled tone holes (which mean Martin), or the 'mercedes' C guard which usually means Conn.

Jungle Jim
User ID: 8332933 Apr 25th 10:23 AM
Does it have beveled toneholes. If it does it is a Martin. Martin made many C melody stencils for Wurlitzer.

Jungle Jim
User ID: 8332933 Apr 25th 11:05 AM
Oooops - Sorry Alan. I didn't see your suggestion about the beveled tone holes. My info was redundant.

blue9girl9
User ID: 8910463 Apr 25th 4:10 PM
mystery solved. i simply asked the guy who sold it to me. thanks for all your input. it's a Conn.

blue9girl9
User ID: 8910463 Apr 25th 4:13 PM
it does have the "mercedes" c guard.

bruce bailey
User ID: 9670323 Apr 26th 12:13 AM
I have a Wurlitzer C Melody with the beveled soldered tone holes but I think it was made by the Indiana Band Inst. Co. and not by martin. If it has the body rings that have multiple grooves and are not smooth I think this is the case.

jazzbug1
User ID: 1836024 Apr 26th 7:03 AM
Another stencil hint: The Bueschers from the C Melody era had a pearl button on the G# key, rather than the bar-shaped touch. Furthermore, some of the Buescher stencils I have seen don't have the fin on the bottom. I have never noticed cheaper workmanship on the stencils versus the name horns from this era. I assume they were all built on the same production lines. Has anyone ever noticed poor soldering or engraving on a stencil?

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 26th 10:11 AM
blue9girl0 - I just love a happy ending..... Conn it is then.

==========

Bruce - yes, I have a bruised stencil C-Mel that I acquired from ebay, noticing the bevelled toneholes, and thinking that it would make a great Martin 'spares' horn.

Alas, it too has the grooved body rings, and I found the bits are not quite interchangeable with standard Martins, so I guess it's a 20's 'Indiana'........:-((

But it does get slightly confusing, as I have slightly later (with front-F) excellent 30's Melody Maker alto & tenor saxes which are obviously Handcraft stencils (with minor mechanism differences, e.g. C & Eb on one rod). They too have the 'multiple groove' body rings, but with slightly different spacings - so I guess it was a neat design feature that lived on.

===============

Jazzbug1 - I have as 'yet another project', info collected on various Buescher design changes throughout the C-Mel era. The stencils seem to all be from the first (pre-snap) set of tooling, with circular G#, some with all-metal touches - no pearl. I don't recollect later Buescher C-Mels ever having a 'bar' G#, it went from circular to half-moon. Quite frequently the neck 'man in the moon' fin was left out on the stencils, but I can't recall ever seeing a Buescher stencil without the scalloped bow fin.

But (as usual), I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, as it expands the knowledge-base. Pics of any sax like that would be greatfully accepted for my website, obviously with credit given, so the knowledge can be shared with all.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 26th 10:15 AM
Ooops - should have been "Melody Master" saxes, Melody Maker was the newspaper I used to read in the 60's looking for gigs or replacement musicians.....

jazzbug1
User ID: 1836024 Apr 26th 12:14 PM
I had a York C Melody with the Buescher features, but no fin-shaped brace on the neck or bow. I'm sure it was a Buescher because of the button key touch on the G# and the small bore which Bueschers had compared to other makers in the 20s. This explains their sweeter tone and slightly less volume from my experience. If you want a blaster C Melody or alto, I have found nothing fatter than the Martins. Even their altos from the 20s through the late 30s have a noticeably larger bore than the Conns, as I have compared the neck diameter of a Martin handcraft with the Conn C Melody or the New Wonder or 6M altos with the Martin Handcrafts. The Conn necks drop into the Martins with plenty of room to spare. I have never compared the tenors, but I would suspect the Conn 10M to be about the biggest bore tenor. Getting back to Bueschers, this explains why Sigurd Rascher chose them for their abilty to easily soar to the top without a big embrochure effort due to the smaller bore. I restored a 1923 Truetone tenor and was amazed at the top end compared to other tenors of that era.
I wonder what Coleman Hawkins played on his ground-breaking approach to the tenor on his early Fletcher Henderson recordings. Anyone have info. on what he played in his early years? I think he played a Selmer Balanced Action later on. Thanks as always to your input to my questions.

jazzbug1
User ID: 1836024 Apr 26th 1:06 PM
On second thought, maybe I'll call Coleman on the "Psychic Hot Line".

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 26th 1:26 PM
Yes, the York i decided not to restore had a round G#, but I didn't find it very Buescher-like in other respects - especially with all the lower-stack toneholes being on a seperate plate that was soldered to the body... Ugh....

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/york-cmel-project.htm

I note one just sold on ebay for $132, one of the pics shows that ' lower stack plate' perfectly ( 160107194935 ).

I will totally agree about Martin alto's - my 'working' alto is a Martin Magna, which, combined with an elderly bronze Berg, is a real character. I bought it from a London dealer way back, all the local pro's kept coming in for a good toot on it, but, as I also had a day job at the time, I was the only one who could afford to buy it !

It outblew all the others in the shop, including a Silversonic King, Low-A Mk VI, and several underslung Conns. In hindsight I should have taken out a big loan and bought the lot ! But isn't hindsight just great ?

I'd heard that Buescher was the choice of dixie/mainstream bands because of the smoothness, combined with the ability to 'cut up rough' when the need arose....

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Apr 26th 6:14 PM
jazzbug1....Coleman Hawkins used many different horns in his early career. Early on he signed an endorsement Contract with Selmer stating that he must use ONLY their horns when playing in the United States. But later on he used SML's. He also endorsed them in Europe and elswhere. (But not the U.S.A.) He used SML's on mostly all of his later recordings. He played a special Coleman Hawkins silver model Rev. A. That bore elaborite engraving and left hand side bell keys and slightly different key guards in addition to his name on the bell. These horns are considered by many to be one of the best tenor saxophones ever made up to that time. PERIOD. When he performed in Europe, all of his publicity ads and flyers stated in large letters that he played SML's. Especially in France. The SML company (whose technicians and craftsmen were former Selmer employees) did this in order to try and dispell the cult belief that you had to play a Selmer in order to be a saxophone player of any importance. Many American players played other brand name horns in public even though they endorsed Selmers. They took the chance of getting hassled by Selmer because some of them truly preferred other brands. They endorsed Selmers for the noteriety and the money recieved from that company. Plus FREE HORNS. Hey! Selmer made great horns. BUT, think abour it. If they were all that great they wouldn't have had to pay every major player they could get their hands on to play their horns. Selmer horns are like Harley Davidson motorcycles. Great! But over hyped and overpriced. S**t, if I was famous. And Selmer payed me to endorse their horns. I'd have their name engraved on all my Buffet Super Dynactions and continue to play my Super Dynies under false pretences. Just for the money. But my friends and associates would know the truth: "Doin' it for the bucks"! This information didn't come from a search engine. It was gleaned from the "Musicians grapevine" and certain collectors and researchers interested in The truth in general and SML saxophones in particular. Believe it or not. These are the facts. Sorry to ramble on so long. But even after all this. Some Selmer freak or argumentive forum member will most likely dispute it anyway.

alan (uk)
User ID: 8200143 Apr 26th 9:20 PM
No........

;-))

J J !@#$%^*()_
User ID: 8332933 Apr 27th 10:21 AM
Muggles - As the proud owner(As you know) of an SML Sterling Silver Coleman Hawkins model Rev.A. I agree with your assessment of the SML's. (Especially since I provided you with most, but not all of your SML, Coleman Hawkins backround info). That model and most other SML's also has rolled tone holes and an extra large bell for monster projection. Also, the metal it is made from, whether brass or silver is tempered for a more vibrant, brighter sound than even a Selmer. These horns are worth way more than they sell for. (If you can find one).

jazzbug1
User ID: 1244314 Apr 28th 10:56 PM
I've been told Jerry Mulligan insisted on playing his ca. 1930 Conn baritone, even though if that's the case, Selmer made him some good offers. I play a 1927 "Chu" Conn baritone and find it very smooth with amazing intonation, even being in tune at high F. Can anyone confirm this apocryphal story?

jazzbug1
User ID: 1244314 Apr 28th 10:57 PM
Oh honorable Captain--Thank you for your informative reply to my query.

Next 20 Messages

blue9girl9 User ID: 8910463	Apr 25th 8:59 AM How does one determine what kind of C Melody one has?! I have an American Wurlitzer. It says 1914 on it with serial # 1119954. It's satin silver with a gold bell. I have a hunch it's a Beuscher stencil, but I would like to know for sure.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 25th 9:04 AM Does it have a shaped 'fin' under the bow, and (often) also under the neck, like this Buescher stencil ? http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/LH-amerprof.htm You'll need to copy & paste the link into your browser, as this site doesn't support links etc.
blue9girl9 User ID: 8910463	Apr 25th 9:16 AM no, it's just plain. it has mother of pearl inlays on the keys and the twirly things on the Eb key are mother of pearl also (twirly things... i'm not very technical!) It also has W6789 engraved on it and the letter "L". i suppose i should take some pictures. i will do that.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 25th 10:14 AM bluegirl9 - there are links to three other websites, which explain about 'which stencil' from this link on my website - http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/question-answer.htm#stencil In particular ( on the saxpics site ) scroll down and check out the links to pics of the bevelled tone holes (which mean Martin), or the 'mercedes' C guard which usually means Conn.
Jungle Jim User ID: 8332933	Apr 25th 10:23 AM Does it have beveled toneholes. If it does it is a Martin. Martin made many C melody stencils for Wurlitzer.
Jungle Jim User ID: 8332933	Apr 25th 11:05 AM Oooops - Sorry Alan. I didn't see your suggestion about the beveled tone holes. My info was redundant.
blue9girl9 User ID: 8910463	Apr 25th 4:10 PM mystery solved. i simply asked the guy who sold it to me. thanks for all your input. it's a Conn.
blue9girl9 User ID: 8910463	Apr 25th 4:13 PM it does have the "mercedes" c guard.
bruce bailey User ID: 9670323	Apr 26th 12:13 AM I have a Wurlitzer C Melody with the beveled soldered tone holes but I think it was made by the Indiana Band Inst. Co. and not by martin. If it has the body rings that have multiple grooves and are not smooth I think this is the case.
jazzbug1 User ID: 1836024	Apr 26th 7:03 AM Another stencil hint: The Bueschers from the C Melody era had a pearl button on the G# key, rather than the bar-shaped touch. Furthermore, some of the Buescher stencils I have seen don't have the fin on the bottom. I have never noticed cheaper workmanship on the stencils versus the name horns from this era. I assume they were all built on the same production lines. Has anyone ever noticed poor soldering or engraving on a stencil?
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 26th 10:11 AM blue9girl0 - I just love a happy ending..... Conn it is then. ========== Bruce - yes, I have a bruised stencil C-Mel that I acquired from ebay, noticing the bevelled toneholes, and thinking that it would make a great Martin 'spares' horn. Alas, it too has the grooved body rings, and I found the bits are not quite interchangeable with standard Martins, so I guess it's a 20's 'Indiana'........:-(( But it does get slightly confusing, as I have slightly later (with front-F) excellent 30's Melody Maker alto & tenor saxes which are obviously Handcraft stencils (with minor mechanism differences, e.g. C & Eb on one rod). They too have the 'multiple groove' body rings, but with slightly different spacings - so I guess it was a neat design feature that lived on. =============== Jazzbug1 - I have as 'yet another project', info collected on various Buescher design changes throughout the C-Mel era. The stencils seem to all be from the first (pre-snap) set of tooling, with circular G#, some with all-metal touches - no pearl. I don't recollect later Buescher C-Mels ever having a 'bar' G#, it went from circular to half-moon. Quite frequently the neck 'man in the moon' fin was left out on the stencils, but I can't recall ever seeing a Buescher stencil without the scalloped bow fin. But (as usual), I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, as it expands the knowledge-base. Pics of any sax like that would be greatfully accepted for my website, obviously with credit given, so the knowledge can be shared with all.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 26th 10:15 AM Ooops - should have been "Melody Master" saxes, Melody Maker was the newspaper I used to read in the 60's looking for gigs or replacement musicians.....
jazzbug1 User ID: 1836024	Apr 26th 12:14 PM I had a York C Melody with the Buescher features, but no fin-shaped brace on the neck or bow. I'm sure it was a Buescher because of the button key touch on the G# and the small bore which Bueschers had compared to other makers in the 20s. This explains their sweeter tone and slightly less volume from my experience. If you want a blaster C Melody or alto, I have found nothing fatter than the Martins. Even their altos from the 20s through the late 30s have a noticeably larger bore than the Conns, as I have compared the neck diameter of a Martin handcraft with the Conn C Melody or the New Wonder or 6M altos with the Martin Handcrafts. The Conn necks drop into the Martins with plenty of room to spare. I have never compared the tenors, but I would suspect the Conn 10M to be about the biggest bore tenor. Getting back to Bueschers, this explains why Sigurd Rascher chose them for their abilty to easily soar to the top without a big embrochure effort due to the smaller bore. I restored a 1923 Truetone tenor and was amazed at the top end compared to other tenors of that era. I wonder what Coleman Hawkins played on his ground-breaking approach to the tenor on his early Fletcher Henderson recordings. Anyone have info. on what he played in his early years? I think he played a Selmer Balanced Action later on. Thanks as always to your input to my questions.
jazzbug1 User ID: 1836024	Apr 26th 1:06 PM On second thought, maybe I'll call Coleman on the "Psychic Hot Line".
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 26th 1:26 PM Yes, the York i decided not to restore had a round G#, but I didn't find it very Buescher-like in other respects - especially with all the lower-stack toneholes being on a seperate plate that was soldered to the body... Ugh.... http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/york-cmel-project.htm I note one just sold on ebay for $132, one of the pics shows that ' lower stack plate' perfectly ( 160107194935 ). I will totally agree about Martin alto's - my 'working' alto is a Martin Magna, which, combined with an elderly bronze Berg, is a real character. I bought it from a London dealer way back, all the local pro's kept coming in for a good toot on it, but, as I also had a day job at the time, I was the only one who could afford to buy it ! It outblew all the others in the shop, including a Silversonic King, Low-A Mk VI, and several underslung Conns. In hindsight I should have taken out a big loan and bought the lot ! But isn't hindsight just great ? I'd heard that Buescher was the choice of dixie/mainstream bands because of the smoothness, combined with the ability to 'cut up rough' when the need arose....
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Apr 26th 6:14 PM jazzbug1....Coleman Hawkins used many different horns in his early career. Early on he signed an endorsement Contract with Selmer stating that he must use ONLY their horns when playing in the United States. But later on he used SML's. He also endorsed them in Europe and elswhere. (But not the U.S.A.) He used SML's on mostly all of his later recordings. He played a special Coleman Hawkins silver model Rev. A. That bore elaborite engraving and left hand side bell keys and slightly different key guards in addition to his name on the bell. These horns are considered by many to be one of the best tenor saxophones ever made up to that time. PERIOD. When he performed in Europe, all of his publicity ads and flyers stated in large letters that he played SML's. Especially in France. The SML company (whose technicians and craftsmen were former Selmer employees) did this in order to try and dispell the cult belief that you had to play a Selmer in order to be a saxophone player of any importance. Many American players played other brand name horns in public even though they endorsed Selmers. They took the chance of getting hassled by Selmer because some of them truly preferred other brands. They endorsed Selmers for the noteriety and the money recieved from that company. Plus FREE HORNS. Hey! Selmer made great horns. BUT, think abour it. If they were all that great they wouldn't have had to pay every major player they could get their hands on to play their horns. Selmer horns are like Harley Davidson motorcycles. Great! But over hyped and overpriced. S**t, if I was famous. And Selmer payed me to endorse their horns. I'd have their name engraved on all my Buffet Super Dynactions and continue to play my Super Dynies under false pretences. Just for the money. But my friends and associates would know the truth: "Doin' it for the bucks"! This information didn't come from a search engine. It was gleaned from the "Musicians grapevine" and certain collectors and researchers interested in The truth in general and SML saxophones in particular. Believe it or not. These are the facts. Sorry to ramble on so long. But even after all this. Some Selmer freak or argumentive forum member will most likely dispute it anyway.
alan (uk) User ID: 8200143	Apr 26th 9:20 PM No........ ;-))
J J !@#$%^()_ User ID: 8332933*	Apr 27th 10:21 AM Muggles - As the proud owner(As you know) of an SML Sterling Silver Coleman Hawkins model Rev.A. I agree with your assessment of the SML's. (Especially since I provided you with most, but not all of your SML, Coleman Hawkins backround info). That model and most other SML's also has rolled tone holes and an extra large bell for monster projection. Also, the metal it is made from, whether brass or silver is tempered for a more vibrant, brighter sound than even a Selmer. These horns are worth way more than they sell for. (If you can find one).
jazzbug1 User ID: 1244314	Apr 28th 10:56 PM I've been told Jerry Mulligan insisted on playing his ca. 1930 Conn baritone, even though if that's the case, Selmer made him some good offers. I play a 1927 "Chu" Conn baritone and find it very smooth with amazing intonation, even being in tune at high F. Can anyone confirm this apocryphal story?
jazzbug1 User ID: 1244314	Apr 28th 10:57 PM Oh honorable Captain--Thank you for your informative reply to my query.