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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Dads C-Melody

Back 20 Messages

spencer05
User ID: 9795313 Dec 31st 7:53 PM
I have a Conn C-Melody that belonged to my dad. I can remember him getting together with some friends and jamming. Unfortunatly I have lost the mouthpiece. I tried using my alto mouthpiece did not work. Anyone able to help me to locate a true C-Melody mouthpiece. Also reeds Thanks

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 10th 2:00 PM
Frequently it is easier just to do it rather than analyse it. The moment passes so quickly. Rather akin to dismantling a rose in order to see how it was made.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 10th 2:34 PM
That was rather deep and philosophical, young man........ Methinks you have soul !

When I was a younger man I didn't analyse. Two trusty Bergs (alto and tenor) stayed in my pockets at all times, and I played whatever saxes I could get my hands on. My sound was within me and the mouthpieces, the saxes merely had to be playable and strong enough to withstand the rigours of 'being on the road' - and not so expensive or irreplaceable that I'd worry about them being damaged or stolen.

Life was so uncomplicated then............ Just simple questions, like - Where's the next gig ? Who's buying the beers ? And of course, no whaccy baccy ! Never, absolutely not......

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 10th 3:06 PM
Do forget Ted Nash of Les Brown's Band of Renown (pre Dave Pell... who's Octet in the 50's & 60's is mimiced by my Octet as of late. I love west coast jazz.) as a master of upper harmonics, quite in tune and very smooth. Dave pretty much avoided the altissimo but Ted made a reputation on it.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 10th 3:40 PM
Ted Nash wrote the book on harmonics that was passed down to me many decades ago - I spent hours/days/weeks with aching embouchure from trying out his fingerings. I'm sure the old tenor player who gave it to me had a good laugh, thinking of me sqealing away - I suspect he gave it away for the same reason I ALMOST did........

But I persevered, much to the pain of all those within hearing distance. Funny, when you first start playing there are more squeaks than notes, then the squeaks disappear, then with an interest in harmonics they magically return again as we probe the stratosphere........

:-))

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 10th 3:44 PM
To Capt.Bb... I've tried many Tenor and Alto moutpieces on the C-Melody. None satisfy me like the Runyun with a spoiler. The Tenor mouthpieces favor the lower notes and the Alto mouthpiece favors the higher notes. It's like play half a horn in each case. The Runyon C-Melody mouthpiece covers the whole range.

I use the following:

Berg Larsen 105/0 SMS - Tenor
Jody Jazz Classic #7 - Alto w & w/o spoiler
Runyon #7 - C-Melody with spoiler
Selmer Super Sessions (G) - Soprano
Jody Jazz Classic - Clarinet (no spoiler)

I also own about 3 more mouthpieces for each horn including some metal Tenor mouthpieces... but for me, hard rubber is where it's at.

Every now and then I try various combinations and I always end up with the same result.

Also... I have retired my Mark VI in favor of the Cannonball tenor. It hurts my to say that... but the Cannonball is just so awesome. The only negative is that it weighs one pound more than the Mark VI, so I use a Bari sholder strap instead of a neck strap. The Mark VI is in its case appreciating. And now you know all except my name... which I will not devulge. Most of you would recognize it. Hint.... I was CEO and founder of a world reknown digital audio manufacturing company in the 70's and 80's in another life while I was an active musician in this life. Nuff Said.

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 10th 3:46 PM
Please excuse my typo's in the previous post.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 10th 5:19 PM
REDEF......Dave Pell, now that was a killer tenor player. He had a sort of muffled precise tone that was particular to him alone. I loved his style of playing AND his Octet. Great Stuff. As far as who you are; It doesn't matter. As long as your comments are true and informative. Just don't snow us with a bunch of baloney! Most of us are too hip for that! No offense intended.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 10th 8:11 PM
REDEF. My doctor was puzzled after carrying out all appropriate checks in order to discover why I suffered from "pins & needles" down both arms & into my hands. I finaly asked whether hanging a six pound weight around my neck for some hours every day could be a factor. FACTOR, he said "it's a formula for shutting off the blood supply". I too use a shoulder strap, & it's great; remember when we used to slightly lift the horn for low C & lower? My main horn is a Rampone & Cazzani tenor, which, on a recent SOTW survey was found to be the heaviest tenor.
With regard to your name, it really does not matter.Captain Muggles also declines to reveal all, but he is a sound chap & it does not matter here; a rose by any other name & all that.
Many pro.sax players have such unusual names anyway; I site Mornington Locket, Wesley McGoogan & Raphael Ravenscroft; must be something to do with the instrument.
We have worked out that you are not Ben Webster or Dexter Gorden. :-)

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 10th 9:18 PM
I have revealed my real name many times on this forum. If you really care. Just look for it. I have also revealed just about my whole biography. But it really doesn't matter as long as my advice is sincere and sound to the best of my knowledge! I am not famous. But I am a true professional journeyman with a s**tload of professional experience who really cares about the saxophone and musicians in general!

REDEF
User ID: 8394983 Jan 10th 11:05 PM
Dave Pell is 72 years old and still going strong on the west coast. I speak to him about a couple of times a month and I have set up my Octet to mimic his, with some of his charts and some of my own, in the Northeastern U.S.. He is a real cool cat to get to know. His stories are funny and endless. One of these days, soon I hope, I going to do an album and possibly a video in his honor. He was my boyhood hero on the Jazz scene in the 50's

Like Capt Muggles, I am 67 years old and getting younger. I even like the modern saxophones such as Cannonball, etc., but I will never part with my Mark VI... too much history.

Capt. Bb... you are correct, I am not Ben Webster or Dexter Gorden nor Lester Young, for that matter. Anyway, except for my initial outburst, I am enjoying this venue.

By the way... do any of you think the Aquila Sax new C-Melody will live up to expectations? As big bands begin to become even more scare, it's possible that the C-Melody will find it way into favor with more modern groups. My local music store sold about 5 Trumpets in C because the players didn't want to transpose. Bodes well for a new modern C-Melody Saxophone. What do you think?

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 11th 4:11 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Steve does some good marketing ad updates his website, he shouldn't have that much trouble selling them. It is getting to the point where the cmel is the obvious route, and kudos to Steve for getting there first.

hmmm... CEO of a digital electronics firm, well, there can't be many of them can there? :)

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 11th 6:38 AM
Sorry Muggers; brain fade on my part. Of course you told us who you were. I seem to remember that, on your early postings, you were a trifle shy.
Paul Butterfield was an early harp hero of mine, & by definition, anyone who played in his band, is the real deal. Sad end to Paul's life.
I have a few old Butterfield albums; did you perform on any? I would like to hear your playing.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Jan 11th 9:09 AM
Captain Beeflat....I did not record with him. I did a string of dates with him in 1969 when he decided to add 2 horns on his tour. One of the dates was at the Fillmore East in New York City. I will try to put some of my playing on line so you can hear it I have a nice recording of my playing that represents my style. It was recorded by a 6 piece group aptly named "Muggles". The title of the piece is "Go"! Now let's move on. After all this stuff has nothing to do with "Dads C Melody"!

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 11th 9:33 AM
I think that "Dad's C Melody" has been answered comprehensively. Probably you are being bashful; after all, some of the Paul Butterfield band, or, at least, recorded with him, were David Sambourn, Mike Bloomfield & Donald Dunn. Illustrious company.

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 11th 9:47 AM
I have re-read all of the posts on inntonation and I agree that the embouchure is different for a low Bb than it is for a high F. What is important is that the embouchure change is proportionate as the notes go up or down and there is no need to emphasize any particular note. I think we agree on that. But first... the Sax has to be set up correctly and the mouthpiece has to be located on the neck correctly.

For a sax to be set up properly it should be done by a great technician who happens to be a very good player or a great player who happens to be a very good technician. I tend to fall into the second catagory (great is a subjective term). When the venting is right on a sax, each note produces the same resistance. That is why I like the Cannonball Alto & Tenor that I play. I had to do almost zero tweaking for them to play well. I had to do a lot of tweaking to get my C-Melody to perform as well as a modern horn. My curved Soprano required some tweaking but not as much as the C-Mel. This is not rocket science... but pretty damned close. You need an engineering mentality to get through it.

As far as pitch goes, I have a neat trick which lets me set the mouthpieces properly on the neck such that the sax is in tune to itself and in pitch to its design intention (A=440). Here goes...

Play a low C and press the Octave key. Listen to the pitch. Play a middle C and match the pitch to the low C & octave key by moving your mouthpiece until the two pitches are the same. Remember the middle C pitch will change more as you move the mouthpiece because it is closer to the mouthpiece. Try to ignore the tambre of the two notes... just listen to the pitch. This only works with low C & octave key vs. the Middle C. Now you have your Sax set up in the mode for which it was designed.

Of course when you are playing with others you will have to compromise but you will be very close to a pitch meter reading. Regardless, You should always practice with the correct setup.

Just to blow your mind... a perfectly tuned piano is a compromise and it is in fact out of tune. Some concert pianoists will have the piano tuned to match the key they will be playing in. The tempered scale on a piano is enharmonically incorrect. Only violinist, etc. and trombone players can appreciate this. The great Frank Rosolino knew every position and their correct enharmonic overtone structure which allowd him to play the way he did. However he did this subconsiously.

A trombone play on the Stan Kenton band asked Frank why he was using diffenent slide positions in a particular unison phrase. Frank replied "you play your F'n book and I'll play mine... don't bug me"

I hope all of the above is helpful. Again, please excuse any typos.

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 11th 9:51 AM
I agree we killed this topic... I'll see you later.

Russ
User ID: 9447203 May 4th 2:01 PM
Where do I find information about Paquito DiRevera?

saxotot
User ID: 0763414 Jun 10th 10:43 PM
i have said it once or twice bass clarinet reeds work on c melody mouthpeices and afew of those are on ebay if you hate ebay as i do
mouthpiece
aquilasax.com

for reeds
reedstore.com

Mal-2k8
User ID: 9335603 Jun 12th 11:38 PM
I asked Steve Wedgwood (the guy behind Aquilasax, or at least one of them) what size would be the best fit to one of his Metalpro mouthpieces, since Fibracells don't come in C-Melody size, and he said tenor was a better fit because it has a somewhat longer cut than a bass clarinet reed. It may be different with the hard rubber mouthpiece, but I'm just passing along what I've been told "from the horse's mouth".

If buying cane reeds, it doesn't cost a whole lot to try both bass clarinet and tenor sax reeds, but I play only synthetics now (recent convert, but now I'm completely sold on them) and at $15 or so a pop, I want one that fits the first time. :)

Back 20 Messages

spencer05 User ID: 9795313	Dec 31st 7:53 PM I have a Conn C-Melody that belonged to my dad. I can remember him getting together with some friends and jamming. Unfortunatly I have lost the mouthpiece. I tried using my alto mouthpiece did not work. Anyone able to help me to locate a true C-Melody mouthpiece. Also reeds Thanks
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 10th 2:00 PM Frequently it is easier just to do it rather than analyse it. The moment passes so quickly. Rather akin to dismantling a rose in order to see how it was made.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 10th 2:34 PM That was rather deep and philosophical, young man........ Methinks you have soul ! When I was a younger man I didn't analyse. Two trusty Bergs (alto and tenor) stayed in my pockets at all times, and I played whatever saxes I could get my hands on. My sound was within me and the mouthpieces, the saxes merely had to be playable and strong enough to withstand the rigours of 'being on the road' - and not so expensive or irreplaceable that I'd worry about them being damaged or stolen. Life was so uncomplicated then............ Just simple questions, like - Where's the next gig ? Who's buying the beers ? And of course, no whaccy baccy ! Never, absolutely not......
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 10th 3:06 PM Do forget Ted Nash of Les Brown's Band of Renown (pre Dave Pell... who's Octet in the 50's & 60's is mimiced by my Octet as of late. I love west coast jazz.) as a master of upper harmonics, quite in tune and very smooth. Dave pretty much avoided the altissimo but Ted made a reputation on it.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 10th 3:40 PM Ted Nash wrote the book on harmonics that was passed down to me many decades ago - I spent hours/days/weeks with aching embouchure from trying out his fingerings. I'm sure the old tenor player who gave it to me had a good laugh, thinking of me sqealing away - I suspect he gave it away for the same reason I ALMOST did........ But I persevered, much to the pain of all those within hearing distance. Funny, when you first start playing there are more squeaks than notes, then the squeaks disappear, then with an interest in harmonics they magically return again as we probe the stratosphere........ :-))
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 10th 3:44 PM To Capt.Bb... I've tried many Tenor and Alto moutpieces on the C-Melody. None satisfy me like the Runyun with a spoiler. The Tenor mouthpieces favor the lower notes and the Alto mouthpiece favors the higher notes. It's like play half a horn in each case. The Runyon C-Melody mouthpiece covers the whole range. I use the following: Berg Larsen 105/0 SMS - Tenor Jody Jazz Classic #7 - Alto w & w/o spoiler Runyon #7 - C-Melody with spoiler Selmer Super Sessions (G) - Soprano Jody Jazz Classic - Clarinet (no spoiler) I also own about 3 more mouthpieces for each horn including some metal Tenor mouthpieces... but for me, hard rubber is where it's at. Every now and then I try various combinations and I always end up with the same result. Also... I have retired my Mark VI in favor of the Cannonball tenor. It hurts my to say that... but the Cannonball is just so awesome. The only negative is that it weighs one pound more than the Mark VI, so I use a Bari sholder strap instead of a neck strap. The Mark VI is in its case appreciating. And now you know all except my name... which I will not devulge. Most of you would recognize it. Hint.... I was CEO and founder of a world reknown digital audio manufacturing company in the 70's and 80's in another life while I was an active musician in this life. Nuff Said.
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 10th 3:46 PM Please excuse my typo's in the previous post.
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 10th 5:19 PM REDEF......Dave Pell, now that was a killer tenor player. He had a sort of muffled precise tone that was particular to him alone. I loved his style of playing AND his Octet. Great Stuff. As far as who you are; It doesn't matter. As long as your comments are true and informative. Just don't snow us with a bunch of baloney! Most of us are too hip for that! No offense intended.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 10th 8:11 PM REDEF. My doctor was puzzled after carrying out all appropriate checks in order to discover why I suffered from "pins & needles" down both arms & into my hands. I finaly asked whether hanging a six pound weight around my neck for some hours every day could be a factor. FACTOR, he said "it's a formula for shutting off the blood supply". I too use a shoulder strap, & it's great; remember when we used to slightly lift the horn for low C & lower? My main horn is a Rampone & Cazzani tenor, which, on a recent SOTW survey was found to be the heaviest tenor. With regard to your name, it really does not matter.Captain Muggles also declines to reveal all, but he is a sound chap & it does not matter here; a rose by any other name & all that. Many pro.sax players have such unusual names anyway; I site Mornington Locket, Wesley McGoogan & Raphael Ravenscroft; must be something to do with the instrument. We have worked out that you are not Ben Webster or Dexter Gorden. :-)
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 10th 9:18 PM I have revealed my real name many times on this forum. If you really care. Just look for it. I have also revealed just about my whole biography. But it really doesn't matter as long as my advice is sincere and sound to the best of my knowledge! I am not famous. But I am a true professional journeyman with a s**tload of professional experience who really cares about the saxophone and musicians in general!
REDEF User ID: 8394983	Jan 10th 11:05 PM Dave Pell is 72 years old and still going strong on the west coast. I speak to him about a couple of times a month and I have set up my Octet to mimic his, with some of his charts and some of my own, in the Northeastern U.S.. He is a real cool cat to get to know. His stories are funny and endless. One of these days, soon I hope, I going to do an album and possibly a video in his honor. He was my boyhood hero on the Jazz scene in the 50's Like Capt Muggles, I am 67 years old and getting younger. I even like the modern saxophones such as Cannonball, etc., but I will never part with my Mark VI... too much history. Capt. Bb... you are correct, I am not Ben Webster or Dexter Gorden nor Lester Young, for that matter. Anyway, except for my initial outburst, I am enjoying this venue. By the way... do any of you think the Aquila Sax new C-Melody will live up to expectations? As big bands begin to become even more scare, it's possible that the C-Melody will find it way into favor with more modern groups. My local music store sold about 5 Trumpets in C because the players didn't want to transpose. Bodes well for a new modern C-Melody Saxophone. What do you think?
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 11th 4:11 AM I've said it before and I'll say it again, if Steve does some good marketing ad updates his website, he shouldn't have that much trouble selling them. It is getting to the point where the cmel is the obvious route, and kudos to Steve for getting there first. hmmm... CEO of a digital electronics firm, well, there can't be many of them can there? :)
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 11th 6:38 AM Sorry Muggers; brain fade on my part. Of course you told us who you were. I seem to remember that, on your early postings, you were a trifle shy. Paul Butterfield was an early harp hero of mine, & by definition, anyone who played in his band, is the real deal. Sad end to Paul's life. I have a few old Butterfield albums; did you perform on any? I would like to hear your playing.
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Jan 11th 9:09 AM Captain Beeflat....I did not record with him. I did a string of dates with him in 1969 when he decided to add 2 horns on his tour. One of the dates was at the Fillmore East in New York City. I will try to put some of my playing on line so you can hear it I have a nice recording of my playing that represents my style. It was recorded by a 6 piece group aptly named "Muggles". The title of the piece is "Go"! Now let's move on. After all this stuff has nothing to do with "Dads C Melody"!
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 11th 9:33 AM I think that "Dad's C Melody" has been answered comprehensively. Probably you are being bashful; after all, some of the Paul Butterfield band, or, at least, recorded with him, were David Sambourn, Mike Bloomfield & Donald Dunn. Illustrious company.
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 11th 9:47 AM I have re-read all of the posts on inntonation and I agree that the embouchure is different for a low Bb than it is for a high F. What is important is that the embouchure change is proportionate as the notes go up or down and there is no need to emphasize any particular note. I think we agree on that. But first... the Sax has to be set up correctly and the mouthpiece has to be located on the neck correctly. For a sax to be set up properly it should be done by a great technician who happens to be a very good player or a great player who happens to be a very good technician. I tend to fall into the second catagory (great is a subjective term). When the venting is right on a sax, each note produces the same resistance. That is why I like the Cannonball Alto & Tenor that I play. I had to do almost zero tweaking for them to play well. I had to do a lot of tweaking to get my C-Melody to perform as well as a modern horn. My curved Soprano required some tweaking but not as much as the C-Mel. This is not rocket science... but pretty damned close. You need an engineering mentality to get through it. As far as pitch goes, I have a neat trick which lets me set the mouthpieces properly on the neck such that the sax is in tune to itself and in pitch to its design intention (A=440). Here goes... Play a low C and press the Octave key. Listen to the pitch. Play a middle C and match the pitch to the low C & octave key by moving your mouthpiece until the two pitches are the same. Remember the middle C pitch will change more as you move the mouthpiece because it is closer to the mouthpiece. Try to ignore the tambre of the two notes... just listen to the pitch. This only works with low C & octave key vs. the Middle C. Now you have your Sax set up in the mode for which it was designed. Of course when you are playing with others you will have to compromise but you will be very close to a pitch meter reading. Regardless, You should always practice with the correct setup. Just to blow your mind... a perfectly tuned piano is a compromise and it is in fact out of tune. Some concert pianoists will have the piano tuned to match the key they will be playing in. The tempered scale on a piano is enharmonically incorrect. Only violinist, etc. and trombone players can appreciate this. The great Frank Rosolino knew every position and their correct enharmonic overtone structure which allowd him to play the way he did. However he did this subconsiously. A trombone play on the Stan Kenton band asked Frank why he was using diffenent slide positions in a particular unison phrase. Frank replied "you play your F'n book and I'll play mine... don't bug me" I hope all of the above is helpful. Again, please excuse any typos.
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 11th 9:51 AM I agree we killed this topic... I'll see you later.
Russ User ID: 9447203	May 4th 2:01 PM Where do I find information about Paquito DiRevera?
saxotot User ID: 0763414	Jun 10th 10:43 PM i have said it once or twice bass clarinet reeds work on c melody mouthpeices and afew of those are on ebay if you hate ebay as i do mouthpiece aquilasax.com for reeds reedstore.com
Mal-2k8 User ID: 9335603	Jun 12th 11:38 PM I asked Steve Wedgwood (the guy behind Aquilasax, or at least one of them) what size would be the best fit to one of his Metalpro mouthpieces, since Fibracells don't come in C-Melody size, and he said tenor was a better fit because it has a somewhat longer cut than a bass clarinet reed. It may be different with the hard rubber mouthpiece, but I'm just passing along what I've been told "from the horse's mouth". If buying cane reeds, it doesn't cost a whole lot to try both bass clarinet and tenor sax reeds, but I play only synthetics now (recent convert, but now I'm completely sold on them) and at $15 or so a pop, I want one that fits the first time. :)