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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / Dads C-Melody

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spencer05
User ID: 9795313 Dec 31st 7:53 PM
I have a Conn C-Melody that belonged to my dad. I can remember him getting together with some friends and jamming. Unfortunatly I have lost the mouthpiece. I tried using my alto mouthpiece did not work. Anyone able to help me to locate a true C-Melody mouthpiece. Also reeds Thanks

REDEF
User ID: 0784604 Jan 5th 9:53 PM
I've tried both Tenor and Bass Clarinet reeds as well as vintage Rico C-Melody reeds and the Bass Clarinet reeds speak easier & they are more responsive. They play better right out of the box. I use the spoiler for the added projection. I also have an Aquilasax mouthpiece and Aquilasax reeds... too meek & mellow.

By-the-way... I have no intonation problems with my set up.

a Conn stencil (the Olympian) C-mel Sax
a Runyon C-Mel mouthpiece #7 with spoiler
& Bass Clarinet reeds

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 6th 4:32 AM
NO intonation problems ? With a tuner or keyboard monitoring, you can play long notes, soft to loud, complete chromatic range - top to bottom, reasonably fixed embouchure - no lipping or correction at all on any notes ?

Lucky man........

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 6th 5:28 PM
REDEF...Maybe you THINK that you have no intonation problems. No intonation problems means that you can play in tune without any lipping in notes or even thinking about it whilst you are playing. If it is true, as Alan says "Lucky Man"!

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 7th 5:18 AM
Alan & Muggers.....Many experienced players, such as both of you, automatically & subconsiously adjust to correct intonation problems...possibly (& charitably) that is what REDEF is saying.
Intonation problems are inherent with all saxphones...apparently it would require 12 octave pips...with all the attendant linkage...to resolve the problem.
As no sax has ever been made in this ideal form, it is a reflection of the playing standard of saxophonists who subconsiously correct. Either that, or we are all tone deaf & are not aware of any intonation problems. :-)

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 7th 8:11 AM
Bb - Yes, I know, I was just being pedantic. (something else that experienced musicians are especially good at....... ;-))

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 7th 7:16 PM
Captain Beeflat...Then I guess REDEF must be an experienced player. I'll roll with that one!

REDEF
User ID: 0373644 Jan 7th 7:17 PM
What a bunch of skepitcal bastards! Obviously, I must be talking to amatuers and not seasoned professionals who would know what I mean. ...and I am not talking about long tones into a meter, I'm talking about actual performances in both small jazz groups and yes a big band for which I have arranged music for the C-melody Sax in a section with Soprano, Alto, C-Melody, Tenor & Bari. For the record... I have been a big band and small group Jazz Tenor man since 1955. So tread lightly... skeptics.

God! Where are your peers when you need them?

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 8th 3:33 AM
Hey - watch your language REDEF ! My parents were definately married when I was conceived and born.....

We are your peers, like it or not, either still professional (or, in my case) retired. And we would appreciate a little respect, I was only responding to your 'no intonation' comment - anyone who's played vintage saxes will know that they all require a little 'compensation' on some notes. In our cases (as has been said) we do this automatically thro' aural feedback, but that doesn't mean that there are no intonation issues.

What message would that send out to a less experienced player, who hasn't yet acquired the ability to 'lip' notes automatically, and needs info on a stable mouthpiece setup ?

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 8th 5:21 AM
REDEF.... The people you call skeptical (sceptical?) b*&"*%ds are, if you re-read, paying you compliments. Experienced players may think there are no intonation problems when they, because of their experience, are automatically correcting them....

Captain Muggles
User ID: 0262034 Jan 8th 2:10 PM
REDEF.....You need to cool out. If you want to match credentials with me, You lose! I have played with Stan Kenton's band, The Glen Miller orchestra, under the leadership of Ray McKinley & Woody Herman's orchestra. Also The Paul Butterfield Blues Band in 1969. I have recorded for 3 major record labels. Mercury, for Jerry Ross and Joe Renzetti (A&R man for Bobby Hebb's recording of "Sunny"); RCA in The Castaway band & Polydor records in 1969 and 70 with the Lifeblood Band. That's only a pittance of my experience. I am not bragging. Only setting you straight. I was not criticizing you. I was complimenting you on your experience. Get real man. Shed the paranoia!

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 9th 9:01 PM
Fair enough! I apologize for the language. But, the long tones into a meter was uncalled for. If you look back at my original post, I was only trying to be helpful.

So... let me start over. There are no noticeable inntonation problems, whether or not I am subconsciously in control. I did take a lot of time to adjust each of my saxophones personally... and that may have a lot to do with it. I, too, have studied the mechanics of the Saxophone.

I play...

Mark VI (721216) Tenor circa 1958 original owner
Cannonball Tenor - which I like very much
Cannonball Alto - which I also like very much
Conn (stencil) C-Melody
Martin Soprano (straight) made by Yanagasawa
Milwaukee (Cannonball Clone) Soprano (curved)
Selmer series 10 Clarinet cicr 1971

I have taken great pains to make all setups compatible by my choice of mouthpieces, reeds & ligatures... so that I can switch from any horn to any other with very minimal disruption. I do not fight with my horns and in turn they do not fight with me.

I, too, have a long resume. But...I don't like pee-pee contests so I will stop here.

REDEF
User ID: 8221333 Jan 9th 9:13 PM
By the way... all bets are off in the altissimo range. But as Charlie Parker once said "If you can't express your self in two and a half octaves, maybe you shouldn't be playing the horn to begin with".

May not be an exact quote... but that's the way I remember it.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 10th 12:06 AM
REDEF.....Read my post under "Top Tones" on this forum on Nov. 11th. It quotes Bird along with a few other things about top tones (harmonics, altisimo or whatever other name you wish to use). Bird cites not needing to go above 2 octaves and a fifth. After all, he never had to. And he made an incredible impact on saxophone playing. But then again; listen to Paquito DiRevera.He will scare the s**t out of you with his incredibly fluid, fast and inventive playing using the harmonic registers. He says it all in about 4 octaves, and it ain't bad at all!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9725373 Jan 10th 12:10 AM
REDEF....Correction: the topic is "Top Notes". It is a few topics right below this thread!

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 10th 5:32 AM
Muggers and REDEF. Whereas I agree with both of you (and Bird) about altissimo, it is always nice to have an easy harmonic A under your control as a final note screamer, is it not? :-)

ukebert
User ID: 9112483 Jan 10th 10:48 AM
True, when I'm on Clarinet it's always nice to finish on a high G or A, bending down from it /up to it, depending on mood...

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 1738604 Jan 10th 11:39 AM
RDEF...Admirable collection of horns.
We all understand your motivation for compatability between set-ups, & I wonder therefore, why you do not use your favourite tenor piece on your C Mel. Many of us have good results with this combination which enhances the tenor aspect of the C Mel; especially as you have stated that you like the projection and modern sound of the Runyon. With your huge experience you will, of course, have no endemic intonation problem with a good tenor piece.

WW2
User ID: 8973393 Jan 10th 12:51 PM
I did a mouthpiece study a couple of years ago (see it at http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/tuning.htm) where I worked to test intonation of specific mouthpieces on a C-Melody saxophone.
This testing was done with a tuner and long tones. I had to work REALLY HARD to maintain a neutral embouchure. In fact, I would play the tuning note used for the test (see the webpage listed above), and, locking my embouchure, I would then immediately change to the fingering of the note being tested. I found that my embouchure would automatically change, and without conscience thought, on each note to bring it in to tune. It took a great deal of work to NOT change my embouchure. This took so much effort that I began designing an artificial embouchure and air input device for testing so I could eliminate the subtle changes in the human player’s embouchure on each note (no, I did not get it working). In fact, some readers critiqued this study saying it was invalid because humans will naturally adjust embouchure so that the mouthpieces studied, and the saxophone studied, could be played in tune more accurately than the data suggested.
I agree with the previous statement. However, my premise was that getting the saxophone and mouthpiece to play in tune as accurately as possible, before the human factor was introduced, would make playing in tune easier and more accurate. This is supported by studies of professional musicians that show that in an actual performance, they could only track intonation that was 30 cents or more out of tune. While this may be true, I am sure you do better than that in actual performance. Absolute pitch accuracy in performance is not necessarily good. What matters more is your intonation relative to the instruments around you.
Musicians adjust their intonation based upon the “beats” they hear or feel while playing. Thus, relative pitch accuracy during performance is more likely plus or minus five cents. This ability to feel and hear intonation errors relative to the other instruments in the band is what distinguishes live human performances from machine performances. As nice as computer generated music can be, it cannot have the soul of human played music. The human factor in tone bending and adjustment on the fly is partially what gives live performances (studio or stage) their soul.
In conclusion, it is true that there is no saxophone with perfect intonation over its entire designed range. Yet I do believe that there are saxophonists that can play their saxophone with perfect intonation over its entire designed range.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Jan 10th 1:39 PM
To clarify what I had said originally about ''long notes' - it was merely that it's so easy for any player to ignore any tuning irregularities when playing phrases, it's only when playing long notes against a tuner or sound source that problems show up. We all think we play in tune, but a spell in a recording studio soon sorts out that myth !

Just about every vintage sax I've played had a slightly (just a few cents...) flat low D when played softly. Rather than lip up, I often chose (on long notes) to open the low C# key just to make the note a tad clearer/sharper.(easier than adjusting open heights of the bell pads..).

And as for harmonics, I've known some players go all their lives without going above high F. However, it depends on the type of music you play. Try playing rock 'n roll. soul, R&B. jazz-funk (to name a few styles) without a few very effective harmonics ! Pretty dull stuff without them.

When modern players like Tom Scott, Mike Brecker and Dave Sanborn extend the sax range, chromatically and seamlessly, they are just following in the footsteps of old-timers like Sigurd Rascher. (have a look at his Wikipedia entry), if you're not familiar with him, especially the section on Top Tones.......

Back 20 Messages Next 20 Messages

spencer05 User ID: 9795313	Dec 31st 7:53 PM I have a Conn C-Melody that belonged to my dad. I can remember him getting together with some friends and jamming. Unfortunatly I have lost the mouthpiece. I tried using my alto mouthpiece did not work. Anyone able to help me to locate a true C-Melody mouthpiece. Also reeds Thanks
REDEF User ID: 0784604	Jan 5th 9:53 PM I've tried both Tenor and Bass Clarinet reeds as well as vintage Rico C-Melody reeds and the Bass Clarinet reeds speak easier & they are more responsive. They play better right out of the box. I use the spoiler for the added projection. I also have an Aquilasax mouthpiece and Aquilasax reeds... too meek & mellow. By-the-way... I have no intonation problems with my set up. a Conn stencil (the Olympian) C-mel Sax a Runyon C-Mel mouthpiece #7 with spoiler & Bass Clarinet reeds
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 6th 4:32 AM NO intonation problems ? With a tuner or keyboard monitoring, you can play long notes, soft to loud, complete chromatic range - top to bottom, reasonably fixed embouchure - no lipping or correction at all on any notes ? Lucky man........
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 6th 5:28 PM REDEF...Maybe you THINK that you have no intonation problems. No intonation problems means that you can play in tune without any lipping in notes or even thinking about it whilst you are playing. If it is true, as Alan says "Lucky Man"!
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 7th 5:18 AM Alan & Muggers.....Many experienced players, such as both of you, automatically & subconsiously adjust to correct intonation problems...possibly (& charitably) that is what REDEF is saying. Intonation problems are inherent with all saxphones...apparently it would require 12 octave pips...with all the attendant linkage...to resolve the problem. As no sax has ever been made in this ideal form, it is a reflection of the playing standard of saxophonists who subconsiously correct. Either that, or we are all tone deaf & are not aware of any intonation problems. :-)
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 7th 8:11 AM Bb - Yes, I know, I was just being pedantic. (something else that experienced musicians are especially good at....... ;-))
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 7th 7:16 PM Captain Beeflat...Then I guess REDEF must be an experienced player. I'll roll with that one!
REDEF User ID: 0373644	Jan 7th 7:17 PM What a bunch of skepitcal bastards! Obviously, I must be talking to amatuers and not seasoned professionals who would know what I mean. ...and I am not talking about long tones into a meter, I'm talking about actual performances in both small jazz groups and yes a big band for which I have arranged music for the C-melody Sax in a section with Soprano, Alto, C-Melody, Tenor & Bari. For the record... I have been a big band and small group Jazz Tenor man since 1955. So tread lightly... skeptics. God! Where are your peers when you need them?
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 8th 3:33 AM Hey - watch your language REDEF ! My parents were definately married when I was conceived and born..... We are your peers, like it or not, either still professional (or, in my case) retired. And we would appreciate a little respect, I was only responding to your 'no intonation' comment - anyone who's played vintage saxes will know that they all require a little 'compensation' on some notes. In our cases (as has been said) we do this automatically thro' aural feedback, but that doesn't mean that there are no intonation issues. What message would that send out to a less experienced player, who hasn't yet acquired the ability to 'lip' notes automatically, and needs info on a stable mouthpiece setup ?
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 8th 5:21 AM REDEF.... The people you call skeptical (sceptical?) b&"%ds are, if you re-read, paying you compliments. Experienced players may think there are no intonation problems when they, because of their experience, are automatically correcting them....
Captain Muggles User ID: 0262034	Jan 8th 2:10 PM REDEF.....You need to cool out. If you want to match credentials with me, You lose! I have played with Stan Kenton's band, The Glen Miller orchestra, under the leadership of Ray McKinley & Woody Herman's orchestra. Also The Paul Butterfield Blues Band in 1969. I have recorded for 3 major record labels. Mercury, for Jerry Ross and Joe Renzetti (A&R man for Bobby Hebb's recording of "Sunny"); RCA in The Castaway band & Polydor records in 1969 and 70 with the Lifeblood Band. That's only a pittance of my experience. I am not bragging. Only setting you straight. I was not criticizing you. I was complimenting you on your experience. Get real man. Shed the paranoia!
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 9th 9:01 PM Fair enough! I apologize for the language. But, the long tones into a meter was uncalled for. If you look back at my original post, I was only trying to be helpful. So... let me start over. There are no noticeable inntonation problems, whether or not I am subconsciously in control. I did take a lot of time to adjust each of my saxophones personally... and that may have a lot to do with it. I, too, have studied the mechanics of the Saxophone. I play... Mark VI (721216) Tenor circa 1958 original owner Cannonball Tenor - which I like very much Cannonball Alto - which I also like very much Conn (stencil) C-Melody Martin Soprano (straight) made by Yanagasawa Milwaukee (Cannonball Clone) Soprano (curved) Selmer series 10 Clarinet cicr 1971 I have taken great pains to make all setups compatible by my choice of mouthpieces, reeds & ligatures... so that I can switch from any horn to any other with very minimal disruption. I do not fight with my horns and in turn they do not fight with me. I, too, have a long resume. But...I don't like pee-pee contests so I will stop here.
REDEF User ID: 8221333	Jan 9th 9:13 PM By the way... all bets are off in the altissimo range. But as Charlie Parker once said "If you can't express your self in two and a half octaves, maybe you shouldn't be playing the horn to begin with". May not be an exact quote... but that's the way I remember it.
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 10th 12:06 AM REDEF.....Read my post under "Top Tones" on this forum on Nov. 11th. It quotes Bird along with a few other things about top tones (harmonics, altisimo or whatever other name you wish to use). Bird cites not needing to go above 2 octaves and a fifth. After all, he never had to. And he made an incredible impact on saxophone playing. But then again; listen to Paquito DiRevera.He will scare the s**t out of you with his incredibly fluid, fast and inventive playing using the harmonic registers. He says it all in about 4 octaves, and it ain't bad at all!
Captain Muggles User ID: 9725373	Jan 10th 12:10 AM REDEF....Correction: the topic is "Top Notes". It is a few topics right below this thread!
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 10th 5:32 AM Muggers and REDEF. Whereas I agree with both of you (and Bird) about altissimo, it is always nice to have an easy harmonic A under your control as a final note screamer, is it not? :-)
ukebert User ID: 9112483	Jan 10th 10:48 AM True, when I'm on Clarinet it's always nice to finish on a high G or A, bending down from it /up to it, depending on mood...
Captain Beeflat User ID: 1738604	Jan 10th 11:39 AM RDEF...Admirable collection of horns. We all understand your motivation for compatability between set-ups, & I wonder therefore, why you do not use your favourite tenor piece on your C Mel. Many of us have good results with this combination which enhances the tenor aspect of the C Mel; especially as you have stated that you like the projection and modern sound of the Runyon. With your huge experience you will, of course, have no endemic intonation problem with a good tenor piece.
WW2 User ID: 8973393	Jan 10th 12:51 PM I did a mouthpiece study a couple of years ago (see it at http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/tuning.htm) where I worked to test intonation of specific mouthpieces on a C-Melody saxophone. This testing was done with a tuner and long tones. I had to work REALLY HARD to maintain a neutral embouchure. In fact, I would play the tuning note used for the test (see the webpage listed above), and, locking my embouchure, I would then immediately change to the fingering of the note being tested. I found that my embouchure would automatically change, and without conscience thought, on each note to bring it in to tune. It took a great deal of work to NOT change my embouchure. This took so much effort that I began designing an artificial embouchure and air input device for testing so I could eliminate the subtle changes in the human player’s embouchure on each note (no, I did not get it working). In fact, some readers critiqued this study saying it was invalid because humans will naturally adjust embouchure so that the mouthpieces studied, and the saxophone studied, could be played in tune more accurately than the data suggested. I agree with the previous statement. However, my premise was that getting the saxophone and mouthpiece to play in tune as accurately as possible, before the human factor was introduced, would make playing in tune easier and more accurate. This is supported by studies of professional musicians that show that in an actual performance, they could only track intonation that was 30 cents or more out of tune. While this may be true, I am sure you do better than that in actual performance. Absolute pitch accuracy in performance is not necessarily good. What matters more is your intonation relative to the instruments around you. Musicians adjust their intonation based upon the “beats” they hear or feel while playing. Thus, relative pitch accuracy during performance is more likely plus or minus five cents. This ability to feel and hear intonation errors relative to the other instruments in the band is what distinguishes live human performances from machine performances. As nice as computer generated music can be, it cannot have the soul of human played music. The human factor in tone bending and adjustment on the fly is partially what gives live performances (studio or stage) their soul. In conclusion, it is true that there is no saxophone with perfect intonation over its entire designed range. Yet I do believe that there are saxophonists that can play their saxophone with perfect intonation over its entire designed range.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Jan 10th 1:39 PM To clarify what I had said originally about ''long notes' - it was merely that it's so easy for any player to ignore any tuning irregularities when playing phrases, it's only when playing long notes against a tuner or sound source that problems show up. We all think we play in tune, but a spell in a recording studio soon sorts out that myth ! Just about every vintage sax I've played had a slightly (just a few cents...) flat low D when played softly. Rather than lip up, I often chose (on long notes) to open the low C# key just to make the note a tad clearer/sharper.(easier than adjusting open heights of the bell pads..). And as for harmonics, I've known some players go all their lives without going above high F. However, it depends on the type of music you play. Try playing rock 'n roll. soul, R&B. jazz-funk (to name a few styles) without a few very effective harmonics ! Pretty dull stuff without them. When modern players like Tom Scott, Mike Brecker and Dave Sanborn extend the sax range, chromatically and seamlessly, they are just following in the footsteps of old-timers like Sigurd Rascher. (have a look at his Wikipedia entry), if you're not familiar with him, especially the section on Top Tones.......