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C Melody Saxophone Forum / C-Tenor (C-Melody) Saxophones / The New Aquilasax C - part II '08

Next 20 Messages

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 15th 4:30 PM
Snarky - thanks for closing the old topic, but I think that there are still some things to be resolved...

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 15th 4:36 PM
I note from the saxontheweb discussion -
Aquila Sax C Melody- Initial impressions!
- that there is one very happy owner, and a repair shop that had some praise for the sax. Being completely objective, I don't know if this was the first C Sax of any type they've encountered ?

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=67803&page=7
post # 138

ukebert
User ID: 1300074 Jan 15th 5:53 PM
Apparently the saxes are a little variable then, or at least hugely mouthpiece dependent.

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 15th 6:46 PM
ukebert, unfortunately postings have shown that both of those are valid comments, plus, add in the original shipping problems, and you have (to mis-quote King Curtis) "Soul Stew..."

[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHcWu-1iUg ]

Just a little light relief...

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 16th 7:43 PM
Wade - did you ever drill out the octave pip ?

I only ask, because of a comment in the saxontheweb repair section. Someone suggested that it's better to first check the second octave tuning just by 'lipping/overblowing up an octave' just with the embouchure - no octave key involved.

If it's in tune that way, but out of tune when the octave key is used, then there may be a case for altering the pip bore...

Seems to be a lot of discussion over what exactly can be achieved by (not easily reversible) pip reaming.

Mal-2
User ID: 9335603 Jan 16th 10:57 PM
Didn't someone use the spray tube off a can of WD-40 to easily and reversibly reduce the diameter of the octave pip? Sounds like a pretty painless way to make the attempt, anyhow.

I have dealt with horns that go sharp up high before, and although this is usually down to a mismatch between mouthpiece and horn, sometimes I'd rather tweak the horn than change mouthpieces. Here's my process, as I did it on my Dolnet bari (great sound, mechanically fair to good (it's no Mark VII), intonation rather suspect at the top and bottom):

1. Find a setup where no notes are significantly flat, and most are within 10 cents. Since it's not possible to even out everything, some notes have to be allowed to go sharp.

2. If the bell notes are sharp (as they are on my bari), I will place some plastic tubing (sealed at both ends) inside the bell, effectively reducing its diameter without actually altering the horn. In the case of my bari, this ends up being a 21 inch segment of Schedule 80 PVC pipe. It's an ugly hack, but I put it on the side furthest from me, so I'd have to lean WAY forward for anyone to see it. For testing out how much tube is necessary, and where to position it, a bit of blue-tack does the job. Once I know where it goes, I apply something more permanent like automotive silicone.

3. If a "core" note is sharp in both octaves, or if the palm keys are sharp, this is really easy to fix with either aluminum tape -- or aluminium to Alan ;) -- used to narrow the tone hole. Again, it's stable but easily removed if a better fix comes along or another setup changes the problem. Lead tape, as used to balance golf clubs, is also a viable option if you have to close down a tone hole significantly or it's a big horn, since it is much thicker and you won't have to use so many layers.

4. If a note is sharp in the upper octave, but not in the lower, a slight lowering of the key action over the hole will lower the pitch of the upper octave without doing a whole lot to the lower. This can only take you so far, but since it's as simple as sticking tape to the horn under the key's backcheck and seeing if it works, it too is pretty painless. It may only take one or two layers of tape to bring those wolf notes under control.

If these methods fail, or the degree of correction necessary is too great to use these hacks without adverse effect on tone and response, then a trip to the local professional is probably in order. Still, there is little risk in trying them, since they are completely reversible. Even if I were to rip out all the hacks, it would give me a pretty good indication of what the pro needs to fix.

In any case, I will have to add the straw-in-the-pip method to my toolbox of potential reversible fixes for intonation issues.

Random note: I've also used waxed dental floss to temporarily shore up a loose neck cork, and even the tenons on a clarinet -- but this is easy enough to repair properly once I get home, which is good because the wrapping does further damage to the underlying cork.

bruce bailey 2008
User ID: 9690803 Jan 17th 12:12 AM
That was me with the tubing in the pip. Easy to reverse! The trick is to get the pip size down small enough to flatten the high notes but not so small as to have the A2 want to drop the octave.

soybean
User ID: 0401124 Jan 17th 1:15 AM
Wade-2; These are great things for every sax player to know. Thanks for the "hacks". I'm printing them out for future reference.

soybean
User ID: 0401124 Jan 17th 1:18 AM
Ooops! Sorry Mal-2. I meant you, of course.

Also, could you explain a little more about how to apply the aluminum or lead tape? thanks again.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Jan 17th 4:04 AM
Presumably, the purpose of the sticky backed aluminium tape is to baffle the tone holes...effectively altering their position by using the tape as a chord (of a circle) across either the top, or the bottom of the tone hole.
Baffle the top of the hole, effectively lowering the position of the tone hole (and the pitch) for sharp notes. Vice versa for flat notes.
If this is the case, then surely it is a temporary fix at best.

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Jan 17th 6:48 AM
Some very clever ideas, Mal-2. Thread was a very common way for the clarinet tenon seal to be done. Some of my Alberts have thread tenons. They seal well and are easy to add to instead of going through a new cork. In this way, it is superior to cork, plus the fact that the price of cork is approaching gold. I especially like Mal-2's methods, as they are a low tech fix with simple materials. Our civilisation has gotten away from the repair mode, hence the vast number of throw away products, leading to economic and pollution problems.

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 17th 8:25 AM
I'm happy with most of that - I was just concerned that Wade was considering opening the pip out by drilling - pretty irreversible unless it's sleeved back, or the whole thing is filled and re-drilled to the original size.

Captain Beeflat 2008
User ID: 1738604 Jan 17th 9:23 AM
Alan.
Quite easy to fill & re-drill...soft solder or a lead shot.

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Jan 17th 9:42 AM
There are times my wife would like to fill me with lead shot.

Alan (UK) '08
User ID: 1731514 Jan 17th 11:17 AM
Bb - I couldn't agree more, "easy to fill & re-drill - soft solder or a lead shot" (the latter, preferably OUT of the cartridge first), but not so easy for some here...

Imagine the bucks (and humour) a tech could make out of the naive statement "Well, I drilled it out on my new sax, thinking...".

jb - I just cannot imagine that to be the case, surely not ?

jazzbug1 2008
User ID: 0735934 Jan 17th 12:31 PM
As I said to her as we rounded a corner too fast, "Just Skidding."

Mal-2
User ID: 9335603 Jan 20th 12:13 AM
Actually the tape in the hole trick is being misinterpreted. I cut the tape into narrow strips anywhere from 3/8" to 1" long depending on the size of the hole. Then I'll stack up to five of them on top of each other and stick them to the inner rim of the hole to simply make it smaller. This is why they are so narrow -- they do not project into the bore. If more are required, I may put another stack on the opposite side of the hole.

The lead tape is thicker even than five layers of aluminum, and since it's solid and not layered, it can be shaved down with a file or a blade. The down side is, it's lead, which is somewhat hazardous. Acoustically it's probably OK, since organ pipes are made of a tin-lead mixture not too far from 60/40 solder.

http://mal-2.com/sax/IMG_1090.jpg shows a hole I've shimmed with cork, though I would be better off replacing this with lead tape. The tape around the coiled section comes from outdoor use in either very cold or very hot weather. In either case it makes it much more comfortable to carry around.

http://mal-2.com/sax/IMG_1092.jpg shows the key that covers this same hole. The post that stops the key was much too short (or conversely, the key was bent way too high) so I did the easiest thing I could think of -- I tapped a hole and put a screw in it so I could dial in exactly the desired action. The silencing cork is attached to the body rather than the key. You can also clearly see the "art deco" palm key shape that identifies this as a Dolnet.

The other palm keys (Eb, E, and F - this horn is too old to have an F#) I was able to get under control by reduced venting alone, and it was not necessary to alter the diameter of the holes.

I'm not showing the pipe-in-the-bell trick because it's an ugly, ugly hack that I hope goes unnoticed for a good long time. :) At least the key hacks are largely invisible.

Mal-2
User ID: 9335603 Jan 20th 12:34 AM
I make no attempt to raise the pitch of a note by putting anything inside. Even though shimming the bottom would raise the center, it would reduce the hole size much more dramatically, and the net effect would still be to lower the pitch. Raising a key MIGHT have an effect, but only if it was too low to start with. This is not too hard to detect, just remove the key entirely and compare the pitch (in both octaves if applicable). If it is not substantially different, venting isn't going to accomplish much.

The only real, permanent fix for a tone hole that is too small is to have it resized -- either a larger, soldered hole can be applied, or it can be re-drawn from the body tube. Soldering on a separate tone hole is something you MIGHT be able to do in your garage, especially if it's an old horn with soldered tone holes to start with, but re-drawing tone holes is well beyond the capacity of most of us I suspect, and rolling the edge or applying a rim ring even more so.

The hole could also be relocated, but this is even more laborious than enlarging one that already exists. This simply should not be necessary, and if it is, it indicates a serious design deficiency in the original instrument.

jp
User ID: 0882114 Feb 5th 5:18 PM
well there is a short note on the Aquilasax website, but not much info.

Steve thinks he has got the intonation problems licked with a neck revision/reversion.
Supposidly there was an issue with the neck mold. Replacement necks are penciled to be shipped late march/april...

Not excited about another wait, but glad to hear the news!

Steve.
User ID: 1007814 Feb 20th 4:59 AM
Sorry about the wait guys,
For you it's annoying, for me it's financially crippling.
Very interesting fixes Mal 2!
The problem had me baffled for a while as it coincided with the octave vent opening but changing the size and position of the vent made no difference.
Turns out the neck mold was made too fat. Reducing the neck width (to the same as the original test prototype)brought all the notes into line.
New repalcement necks will be posted out to those who need them free of course.

Next 20 Messages

Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 15th 4:30 PM Snarky - thanks for closing the old topic, but I think that there are still some things to be resolved...
Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 15th 4:36 PM I note from the saxontheweb discussion - Aquila Sax C Melody- Initial impressions! - that there is one very happy owner, and a repair shop that had some praise for the sax. Being completely objective, I don't know if this was the first C Sax of any type they've encountered ? http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=67803&page=7 post # 138
ukebert User ID: 1300074	Jan 15th 5:53 PM Apparently the saxes are a little variable then, or at least hugely mouthpiece dependent.
Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 15th 6:46 PM ukebert, unfortunately postings have shown that both of those are valid comments, plus, add in the original shipping problems, and you have (to mis-quote King Curtis) "Soul Stew..." [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHcWu-1iUg ] Just a little light relief...
Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 16th 7:43 PM Wade - did you ever drill out the octave pip ? I only ask, because of a comment in the saxontheweb repair section. Someone suggested that it's better to first check the second octave tuning just by 'lipping/overblowing up an octave' just with the embouchure - no octave key involved. If it's in tune that way, but out of tune when the octave key is used, then there may be a case for altering the pip bore... Seems to be a lot of discussion over what exactly can be achieved by (not easily reversible) pip reaming.
Mal-2 User ID: 9335603	Jan 16th 10:57 PM Didn't someone use the spray tube off a can of WD-40 to easily and reversibly reduce the diameter of the octave pip? Sounds like a pretty painless way to make the attempt, anyhow. I have dealt with horns that go sharp up high before, and although this is usually down to a mismatch between mouthpiece and horn, sometimes I'd rather tweak the horn than change mouthpieces. Here's my process, as I did it on my Dolnet bari (great sound, mechanically fair to good (it's no Mark VII), intonation rather suspect at the top and bottom): 1. Find a setup where no notes are significantly flat, and most are within 10 cents. Since it's not possible to even out everything, some notes have to be allowed to go sharp. 2. If the bell notes are sharp (as they are on my bari), I will place some plastic tubing (sealed at both ends) inside the bell, effectively reducing its diameter without actually altering the horn. In the case of my bari, this ends up being a 21 inch segment of Schedule 80 PVC pipe. It's an ugly hack, but I put it on the side furthest from me, so I'd have to lean WAY forward for anyone to see it. For testing out how much tube is necessary, and where to position it, a bit of blue-tack does the job. Once I know where it goes, I apply something more permanent like automotive silicone. 3. If a "core" note is sharp in both octaves, or if the palm keys are sharp, this is really easy to fix with either aluminum tape -- or aluminium to Alan ;) -- used to narrow the tone hole. Again, it's stable but easily removed if a better fix comes along or another setup changes the problem. Lead tape, as used to balance golf clubs, is also a viable option if you have to close down a tone hole significantly or it's a big horn, since it is much thicker and you won't have to use so many layers. 4. If a note is sharp in the upper octave, but not in the lower, a slight lowering of the key action over the hole will lower the pitch of the upper octave without doing a whole lot to the lower. This can only take you so far, but since it's as simple as sticking tape to the horn under the key's backcheck and seeing if it works, it too is pretty painless. It may only take one or two layers of tape to bring those wolf notes under control. If these methods fail, or the degree of correction necessary is too great to use these hacks without adverse effect on tone and response, then a trip to the local professional is probably in order. Still, there is little risk in trying them, since they are completely reversible. Even if I were to rip out all the hacks, it would give me a pretty good indication of what the pro needs to fix. In any case, I will have to add the straw-in-the-pip method to my toolbox of potential reversible fixes for intonation issues. Random note: I've also used waxed dental floss to temporarily shore up a loose neck cork, and even the tenons on a clarinet -- but this is easy enough to repair properly once I get home, which is good because the wrapping does further damage to the underlying cork.
bruce bailey 2008 User ID: 9690803	Jan 17th 12:12 AM That was me with the tubing in the pip. Easy to reverse! The trick is to get the pip size down small enough to flatten the high notes but not so small as to have the A2 want to drop the octave.
soybean User ID: 0401124	Jan 17th 1:15 AM Wade-2; These are great things for every sax player to know. Thanks for the "hacks". I'm printing them out for future reference.
soybean User ID: 0401124	Jan 17th 1:18 AM Ooops! Sorry Mal-2. I meant you, of course. Also, could you explain a little more about how to apply the aluminum or lead tape? thanks again.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Jan 17th 4:04 AM Presumably, the purpose of the sticky backed aluminium tape is to baffle the tone holes...effectively altering their position by using the tape as a chord (of a circle) across either the top, or the bottom of the tone hole. Baffle the top of the hole, effectively lowering the position of the tone hole (and the pitch) for sharp notes. Vice versa for flat notes. If this is the case, then surely it is a temporary fix at best.
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Jan 17th 6:48 AM Some very clever ideas, Mal-2. Thread was a very common way for the clarinet tenon seal to be done. Some of my Alberts have thread tenons. They seal well and are easy to add to instead of going through a new cork. In this way, it is superior to cork, plus the fact that the price of cork is approaching gold. I especially like Mal-2's methods, as they are a low tech fix with simple materials. Our civilisation has gotten away from the repair mode, hence the vast number of throw away products, leading to economic and pollution problems.
Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 17th 8:25 AM I'm happy with most of that - I was just concerned that Wade was considering opening the pip out by drilling - pretty irreversible unless it's sleeved back, or the whole thing is filled and re-drilled to the original size.
Captain Beeflat 2008 User ID: 1738604	Jan 17th 9:23 AM Alan. Quite easy to fill & re-drill...soft solder or a lead shot.
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Jan 17th 9:42 AM There are times my wife would like to fill me with lead shot.
Alan (UK) '08 User ID: 1731514	Jan 17th 11:17 AM Bb - I couldn't agree more, "easy to fill & re-drill - soft solder or a lead shot" (the latter, preferably OUT of the cartridge first), but not so easy for some here... Imagine the bucks (and humour) a tech could make out of the naive statement "Well, I drilled it out on my new sax, thinking...". jb - I just cannot imagine that to be the case, surely not ?
jazzbug1 2008 User ID: 0735934	Jan 17th 12:31 PM As I said to her as we rounded a corner too fast, "Just Skidding."
Mal-2 User ID: 9335603	Jan 20th 12:13 AM Actually the tape in the hole trick is being misinterpreted. I cut the tape into narrow strips anywhere from 3/8" to 1" long depending on the size of the hole. Then I'll stack up to five of them on top of each other and stick them to the inner rim of the hole to simply make it smaller. This is why they are so narrow -- they do not project into the bore. If more are required, I may put another stack on the opposite side of the hole. The lead tape is thicker even than five layers of aluminum, and since it's solid and not layered, it can be shaved down with a file or a blade. The down side is, it's lead, which is somewhat hazardous. Acoustically it's probably OK, since organ pipes are made of a tin-lead mixture not too far from 60/40 solder. http://mal-2.com/sax/IMG_1090.jpg shows a hole I've shimmed with cork, though I would be better off replacing this with lead tape. The tape around the coiled section comes from outdoor use in either very cold or very hot weather. In either case it makes it much more comfortable to carry around. http://mal-2.com/sax/IMG_1092.jpg shows the key that covers this same hole. The post that stops the key was much too short (or conversely, the key was bent way too high) so I did the easiest thing I could think of -- I tapped a hole and put a screw in it so I could dial in exactly the desired action. The silencing cork is attached to the body rather than the key. You can also clearly see the "art deco" palm key shape that identifies this as a Dolnet. The other palm keys (Eb, E, and F - this horn is too old to have an F#) I was able to get under control by reduced venting alone, and it was not necessary to alter the diameter of the holes. I'm not showing the pipe-in-the-bell trick because it's an ugly, ugly hack that I hope goes unnoticed for a good long time. :) At least the key hacks are largely invisible.
Mal-2 User ID: 9335603	Jan 20th 12:34 AM I make no attempt to raise the pitch of a note by putting anything inside. Even though shimming the bottom would raise the center, it would reduce the hole size much more dramatically, and the net effect would still be to lower the pitch. Raising a key MIGHT have an effect, but only if it was too low to start with. This is not too hard to detect, just remove the key entirely and compare the pitch (in both octaves if applicable). If it is not substantially different, venting isn't going to accomplish much. The only real, permanent fix for a tone hole that is too small is to have it resized -- either a larger, soldered hole can be applied, or it can be re-drawn from the body tube. Soldering on a separate tone hole is something you MIGHT be able to do in your garage, especially if it's an old horn with soldered tone holes to start with, but re-drawing tone holes is well beyond the capacity of most of us I suspect, and rolling the edge or applying a rim ring even more so. The hole could also be relocated, but this is even more laborious than enlarging one that already exists. This simply should not be necessary, and if it is, it indicates a serious design deficiency in the original instrument.
jp User ID: 0882114	Feb 5th 5:18 PM well there is a short note on the Aquilasax website, but not much info. Steve thinks he has got the intonation problems licked with a neck revision/reversion. Supposidly there was an issue with the neck mold. Replacement necks are penciled to be shipped late march/april... Not excited about another wait, but glad to hear the news!
Steve. User ID: 1007814	Feb 20th 4:59 AM Sorry about the wait guys, For you it's annoying, for me it's financially crippling. Very interesting fixes Mal 2! The problem had me baffled for a while as it coincided with the octave vent opening but changing the size and position of the vent made no difference. Turns out the neck mold was made too fat. Reducing the neck width (to the same as the original test prototype)brought all the notes into line. New repalcement necks will be posted out to those who need them free of course.