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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Good Natured Banter / Global Warming

Back 20 Messages

Sir Edmund KT
User ID: 1516194 Sep 23rd 9:06 AM
So yet another hurricane is on its way, this time hurricane Rita. People are heeding the warnings and moving away from the areas at risk. I've seen reported on the news 100 mile road jams; so many more vehicles pumping out greenhouse gases to pollute the atmosphere and contribute to global warming. When is the American Administration going to take notice and sign the Kyoto Agreement to reduce carbon immissions? For many years America has been burying its head in the sand and now it is reaping the whirlwind. Do you think Americans know who to blame for this mess?

WW2
User ID: 0882114 Sep 26th 8:08 PM
Yes Lewis?

Wazoo, welcome to the forum. Too bad your first post was sticking your head into the hornet's nest, so to speak.

It looks like this has turned in to a "We versus Them" type of argument. These "the USA is the great SATAN" feelings is what has gotten us down the path of 9/11 (and prior terrorist attacks), Afghanistan, Iraq, London, Madrid, and too many others to name. We are really one world and each of us needs to do our part to bring peace and understanding to the forefront.

I myself have thrown gasoline on this fire. More important, blaming anyone, either them, or us is fruitless. We need to attack the real cause of the problems. We will never resolve this argument.

So, in the interest of peace, and to get us back to what really matters, to wit SAXOPHONES, I vote that we stop this argument and agree to disagree.

Perhaps I should open another board call "Political Arguments and Other Nonsense" so that "Good Natured Banter" can get back to being "Good Natured"!

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 26th 8:12 PM
Wade.
Thanks for the laugh......propaganda from someone really on the back foot.
Sadly your initial premise, on which you base everything, is incorrect. ANTI-POLUTION LAWS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FUEL CONSUMPTION...in fact it can be counter productive.
I was an engine development engineer in Europe at the time the Californian Emission rules were enforced. In order to sell cars in America we had to adhere to your standards controlling Carbon Monoxide (directly proportional to air/fuel ratio) and Unburnt Hydrocarbons which are a measure of burn efficiency......this, despite the fact that our cars, with their typically smaller engines would provide better MPG with the choke (strangler) half out!
The Emission laws were introduced simply because of the photochemical conditions prevailing in Los Angeles producing smog.
In order to reduce unburnt HC on vehicle over-run we had to install a throttle by-pass which PROVIDED (ie. wasted,) FUEL on the over-run...that's what I call efficiency! To make matters even worse, the ignition timing was retarded under these conditions to re-instate the now non existent engine braking; resulting in further inefficiency.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 26th 8:14 PM
Continued due to finger trouble (it is 2am here)

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 26th 8:36 PM
Attempt No. 3!
As a further example of American hypocracy was the outcry from the rich & powerful in America when Enzo Ferarri announced that he was abandoning the American market as the cost of providing emission control exceeded his profits in America.(It has been said that, because of the costs, it would have been cheaper to move Loss Angeles). Suddenly, faced with this, the Government back tracked & announced that limited numbers of specialist cars would be allowed in without emission control.....no surprise then that the number was the same as Ferarri's export to America in previous years.
Another factor Wade is that your vast engined 4x4s are considered to be "trucks" & the stringent Anti Pollution limits are relaxed in America in the case of "trucks"
In terms of efficiency you are light years behind Europe.....I read that your latest "sports car" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) the new Ford Mustang develops 300 HP from its vast & inefficient 4.6 litre engine....the BMW of equivalent engine size develops nearly 500 HP.
Whereas I am the first to see that neither brakes nor sophisticated suspension are required at 55 MPH on straight roads..it still seems an anachronism that your so called Sports Car has the same "cart springing & live rear axle" as the old Model T Ford...albeit with a Panhard rod (last seen in Europe decades ago)...wow!
It was ammusing to read in a road test of this latest Mustang that it ran out of brakes by turn 6 on your excellent Laguna Sega circuit.
There is much more to a sports car than muscling a huge engine into an anti deluvian chassis.....that simply provides a series of drag races between corners.
Please wade, do not talk to us about fuel efficiency....there, I am feeling better now :-))

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 26th 8:46 PM
Wade.
I so agree with you about these ghastly, non saxophonic issues....there is so little that we can do about them other than to raise each other's blood pressure.
In fact, these are my first posts for some time....being put off by by both these inappropriate topics and being, with Roger, insulted by a moron......strange to me that some on this board regard that as fun...Hey Ho.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Sep 26th 9:29 PM
Wade - as it's 3 a.m. and I've been woken by heavy rain, just a few bleary thoughts....

There you go again bringing religion into it ( quote " "the USA is the great SATAN" )... I haven't ever said that, and never will. Strange that religion does seem to breed aspects of survivalism, my old Mormon boss had a sideline selling 'packaged disaster foods' for nuclear shelters. He used to joke that they'd eventually go out of date so he'd be selling replacements as well - and that in the event of actual use, who'd be left to complain, or complain to.... ? He used to say "no room for religious sentiments in business, lad, I leave all that at home..."

Wazoo - welcome too. Your quote "Americans .....don't they generate about 70% of the world's wealth? " Guess you must be from the good old USA then ? So without you guys, we'd all be under-developed backwaters ? I think not ! Don't forget that you all came from our poor underdeveloped third world countries (like your German scientists). Without our blood - and in the current quagmire of Iraq and Afghanistan that is frighteningly accurate - you'd all still be a nation living in tents and trading furs, with your 4x4 ponies.

Wade - sure looked like a freeway full of big gas-guzzlers and trucks to me, the way they went offroad at one stage - but then I forgot you guys do regard that size as 'normal', and sensible cars as 'compacts'. Must have something to do with portion sizes at KFC I guess.... Sure were some BIG people being rescued in New Orleans.

I think there will always be this difference between the way the US perceives itself, and the way others (including allies like us) frequently see you. I do honestly feel, in the depths of my heart, that if the world ever comes to a premature end, either the USA or Israel will be deep in the mess somewhere, shaking that 'big stick' at other nations. For all the good that I acknowledge you do, as a country, you also have great potential for destruction, self or otherwise....

I'll now go and put on my "THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH" sandwich boards, and go for a quiet stroll in the lovely, purifying (not quite acid yet) rain.....

It's only words...:-))

SelmerSaxMan
User ID: 8645673 Sep 27th 1:44 AM
guwapo, I will get back on that mormonism deal later - it is too late to post such a post right now.

Captain Beeflat
User ID: 9865253 Sep 27th 4:43 AM
Gosh... Is that a threat?......I am agog with apathy.....consumed with indifference: as, I suspect, are most others here. Perhaps the pause will give you the opportunity to check your grammar.

Guwapo
User ID: 0038914 Sep 27th 7:40 AM
Looks like most of us have been looking at the problem of Global Warming from a national perspective: what's good for my country is probably not good for yours; so who cares. That kinda idea. A very narrow view of this problem, but Global Warming concerns us all, it is not just a problem for America, or Europe or Japan; it's a problem for the whole Earth of which we are all citizens. If we were visitors from outer space we would see that the Earth is a very insignificant dot, but Earth is Home and we should take care of it if not for us for future generations. We should all work together to save the Earth.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 27th 8:09 AM
Alan.
Glad that you have no acid rain....ironically perhaps, it is the sulphur dioxide from our power stations, forming sulphurous acid, which results in acid rain in Sweden... This gives the lie to electric cars being environmentally friendly...where does the motive power come from?....yes, that's right...the inefficient, fossil fuelled, power stations....hey ho...no justice.
I do wish that all the yoghart weavers & tree huggers would do just a little bit of research before lecturing us on "Saving the Planet".

Captain Muggles
User ID: 2309834 Sep 27th 1:54 PM
The World........Sigh!!!! I guess we are all doomed! I guess its time to start playing music with all the stops pulled out. (Although, I always do that anyway)!

WW2
User ID: 0882114 Sep 27th 5:27 PM
Alan (UK) I do apologize; I did not intend to attribute the "USA is the Great SATAN!" statement to you. It is the rallying cry of Osama bin Laden, and Jihadist across the world that wish to destroy western civilization, not just the USA. In no way did I mean to imply that this came from, or included you.

Lewis, you are quite correct. The anti-pollution controls on modern American automobiles are designed to fight photochemical smog. Any additional benefit is serendipity. Unfortunately, American governments (states and federal) usually make bad laws. For example, the throttle device you mentioned. I can’t tell you how many times my VW bug backfired because of that thing! It would have been far better if the law simply stated the acceptable levels of pollutants allowed at idle and at running load, and left the “how” to the engineers. I am sure that the engineers could have come up with much better engines with greater efficiency and lower pollution levels than the legislated contraptions under my hood. My point is that it did not matter that the cars in the 100-mile long traffic jam were highly efficient or not. When a vehicle is not moving but the engine is running it is getting ZERO miles per gallon, basically just wasting fuel and polluting in the process.

As for the engineering level of American automobiles, I can only say that foreign competition has had, and will continue to have, a positive effect on the American automobiles. For example, American automobiles used to be designed to basically fall apart after 100,000 miles. Today, due to the superior engineering of European and Japanese automobiles, American automobiles easily last 200,000 miles (with proper maintenance).

Also, true sports cars had better be able to handle the twisties or they will be out run on any road course in the world. Straight-line acceleration is only good for drag races unless you can hit the brakes and make the turns at a decent speed. I have been in road-rallies where high-powered Chevrolet Novas were up against VW Bugs. The Novas did not do well since the course had lots of turns. Their acceleration helped in the straight portions of the course, but they had to crawl around the corners. The Bugs simply accelerated as best they could and carried their speed through the corners and around the Novas. And the Bugs were famous for their POOR cornering performance!

Laura
User ID: 0721754 Sep 27th 7:12 PM
Wade- I thought BUGS were famous for their sticking heaters!

WW2
User ID: 0882114 Sep 27th 7:18 PM
Yes, that too! Of course, the heat was taken directly from the exhaust pipes, so if you had a small hole, you got to breath the engine exhaust while trying to stay warm!

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Sep 28th 5:42 AM
Laura.
Having had many VW Bugs, in varying guises & levels of modification, please do not remind me of the heaters.....took about 20 miles to come into effect & always accompanied by a smell of exhaust....my son used to call them "Hitler's revenge; personal gas chambers".
Wade, with regard to fuel consumption, it is a little known fact that, until very recently, cars, from a cold start & regardless of engine size, returned about 6 MPG for the first couple of miles.

Jim B
User ID: 1913054 Sep 28th 7:34 AM
Local paper had the following article on wage-earners and self-employed by income levels:

$1 to 9999 48.5 million (23.8%)

10,000 to 19999 42.3 million (20.8%)

20000 to 29999 32.3 million (15.9%)

30000 to 39999 24.5 million (12%)

40000 to 49999 16.9 million (8.3%)

50000 to 59999 11.3 million (5.5%)

60000 to 69999 7.7 million (3.8%)

70000 to 79999 5.2 million (2.5%)

80000 to 89999 3.5 million (1.7%)

90000 and up 11.2 million (5.5%)

So much for income distribution in the USA-- not everyone is rich.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Sep 28th 9:19 AM
Guys (of both sexes...) - I'm finding this non-musical stuff too time-demanding and frustrating , so I'm bowing out of all these aggravational topics in favour of the more musical ones. Music is much more satisfying than politics any day, whilst I certainly can't make the world a better place by arguing about it, hopefully I can by playing music.....

But just 'cos I've stopped commenting, doesn't mean that anyone else is correct in their assumptions or assertions !

As Spike Milligan (comedian and jazz trumpet player) used to say - "Love, Light, Peace". And his epitaph ? "I told you I was ill."
:-))

Jim B
User ID: 1913054 Sep 28th 5:12 PM
May I remind Alan(UK) that this section of the chatroom is "Good natured Banter" not saxophones so I am bowing out also. On TV yesterday was a piece about the Artic circle ice pack. It stated that 1/3 of the total ice pack has melted, and within 100 years it is estimated it all will be gone, no matter what we do in the short term. I live in the USA in an area what used to be covered with ice flows. All the talk about autos in the old days, you have to remember with electronic chips the ignition systems of today are different than days ago. My 1995 ford big car gets 23MPG in the city driving, 37MPG on the highway. My 2002 Nissan small car gets 27MPG city, 37MPG on the highway. I drive both the same way. As for Ferarri, some cars simply don't sell well in the marketplace and Ferarri sells one that doesn't sell that well. Mercedes also sells cars that constantly have quality control problems.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Sep 28th 7:15 PM
(this is a recorded message) "Alan(UK) can't hear you, he's gone......"

Back 20 Messages

Sir Edmund KT User ID: 1516194	Sep 23rd 9:06 AM So yet another hurricane is on its way, this time hurricane Rita. People are heeding the warnings and moving away from the areas at risk. I've seen reported on the news 100 mile road jams; so many more vehicles pumping out greenhouse gases to pollute the atmosphere and contribute to global warming. When is the American Administration going to take notice and sign the Kyoto Agreement to reduce carbon immissions? For many years America has been burying its head in the sand and now it is reaping the whirlwind. Do you think Americans know who to blame for this mess?
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Sep 26th 8:08 PM Yes Lewis? Wazoo, welcome to the forum. Too bad your first post was sticking your head into the hornet's nest, so to speak. It looks like this has turned in to a "We versus Them" type of argument. These "the USA is the great SATAN" feelings is what has gotten us down the path of 9/11 (and prior terrorist attacks), Afghanistan, Iraq, London, Madrid, and too many others to name. We are really one world and each of us needs to do our part to bring peace and understanding to the forefront. I myself have thrown gasoline on this fire. More important, blaming anyone, either them, or us is fruitless. We need to attack the real cause of the problems. We will never resolve this argument. So, in the interest of peace, and to get us back to what really matters, to wit SAXOPHONES, I vote that we stop this argument and agree to disagree. Perhaps I should open another board call "Political Arguments and Other Nonsense" so that "Good Natured Banter" can get back to being "Good Natured"!
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 26th 8:12 PM Wade. Thanks for the laugh......propaganda from someone really on the back foot. Sadly your initial premise, on which you base everything, is incorrect. ANTI-POLUTION LAWS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FUEL CONSUMPTION...in fact it can be counter productive. I was an engine development engineer in Europe at the time the Californian Emission rules were enforced. In order to sell cars in America we had to adhere to your standards controlling Carbon Monoxide (directly proportional to air/fuel ratio) and Unburnt Hydrocarbons which are a measure of burn efficiency......this, despite the fact that our cars, with their typically smaller engines would provide better MPG with the choke (strangler) half out! The Emission laws were introduced simply because of the photochemical conditions prevailing in Los Angeles producing smog. In order to reduce unburnt HC on vehicle over-run we had to install a throttle by-pass which PROVIDED (ie. wasted,) FUEL on the over-run...that's what I call efficiency! To make matters even worse, the ignition timing was retarded under these conditions to re-instate the now non existent engine braking; resulting in further inefficiency.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 26th 8:14 PM Continued due to finger trouble (it is 2am here)
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 26th 8:36 PM Attempt No. 3! As a further example of American hypocracy was the outcry from the rich & powerful in America when Enzo Ferarri announced that he was abandoning the American market as the cost of providing emission control exceeded his profits in America.(It has been said that, because of the costs, it would have been cheaper to move Loss Angeles). Suddenly, faced with this, the Government back tracked & announced that limited numbers of specialist cars would be allowed in without emission control.....no surprise then that the number was the same as Ferarri's export to America in previous years. Another factor Wade is that your vast engined 4x4s are considered to be "trucks" & the stringent Anti Pollution limits are relaxed in America in the case of "trucks" In terms of efficiency you are light years behind Europe.....I read that your latest "sports car" (an oxymoron if ever there was one) the new Ford Mustang develops 300 HP from its vast & inefficient 4.6 litre engine....the BMW of equivalent engine size develops nearly 500 HP. Whereas I am the first to see that neither brakes nor sophisticated suspension are required at 55 MPH on straight roads..it still seems an anachronism that your so called Sports Car has the same "cart springing & live rear axle" as the old Model T Ford...albeit with a Panhard rod (last seen in Europe decades ago)...wow! It was ammusing to read in a road test of this latest Mustang that it ran out of brakes by turn 6 on your excellent Laguna Sega circuit. There is much more to a sports car than muscling a huge engine into an anti deluvian chassis.....that simply provides a series of drag races between corners. Please wade, do not talk to us about fuel efficiency....there, I am feeling better now :-))
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 26th 8:46 PM Wade. I so agree with you about these ghastly, non saxophonic issues....there is so little that we can do about them other than to raise each other's blood pressure. In fact, these are my first posts for some time....being put off by by both these inappropriate topics and being, with Roger, insulted by a moron......strange to me that some on this board regard that as fun...Hey Ho.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Sep 26th 9:29 PM Wade - as it's 3 a.m. and I've been woken by heavy rain, just a few bleary thoughts.... There you go again bringing religion into it ( quote " "the USA is the great SATAN" )... I haven't ever said that, and never will. Strange that religion does seem to breed aspects of survivalism, my old Mormon boss had a sideline selling 'packaged disaster foods' for nuclear shelters. He used to joke that they'd eventually go out of date so he'd be selling replacements as well - and that in the event of actual use, who'd be left to complain, or complain to.... ? He used to say "no room for religious sentiments in business, lad, I leave all that at home..." Wazoo - welcome too. Your quote "Americans .....don't they generate about 70% of the world's wealth? " Guess you must be from the good old USA then ? So without you guys, we'd all be under-developed backwaters ? I think not ! Don't forget that you all came from our poor underdeveloped third world countries (like your German scientists). Without our blood - and in the current quagmire of Iraq and Afghanistan that is frighteningly accurate - you'd all still be a nation living in tents and trading furs, with your 4x4 ponies. Wade - sure looked like a freeway full of big gas-guzzlers and trucks to me, the way they went offroad at one stage - but then I forgot you guys do regard that size as 'normal', and sensible cars as 'compacts'. Must have something to do with portion sizes at KFC I guess.... Sure were some BIG people being rescued in New Orleans. I think there will always be this difference between the way the US perceives itself, and the way others (including allies like us) frequently see you. I do honestly feel, in the depths of my heart, that if the world ever comes to a premature end, either the USA or Israel will be deep in the mess somewhere, shaking that 'big stick' at other nations. For all the good that I acknowledge you do, as a country, you also have great potential for destruction, self or otherwise.... I'll now go and put on my "THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH" sandwich boards, and go for a quiet stroll in the lovely, purifying (not quite acid yet) rain..... It's only words...:-))
SelmerSaxMan User ID: 8645673	Sep 27th 1:44 AM guwapo, I will get back on that mormonism deal later - it is too late to post such a post right now.
Captain Beeflat User ID: 9865253	Sep 27th 4:43 AM Gosh... Is that a threat?......I am agog with apathy.....consumed with indifference: as, I suspect, are most others here. Perhaps the pause will give you the opportunity to check your grammar.
Guwapo User ID: 0038914	Sep 27th 7:40 AM Looks like most of us have been looking at the problem of Global Warming from a national perspective: what's good for my country is probably not good for yours; so who cares. That kinda idea. A very narrow view of this problem, but Global Warming concerns us all, it is not just a problem for America, or Europe or Japan; it's a problem for the whole Earth of which we are all citizens. If we were visitors from outer space we would see that the Earth is a very insignificant dot, but Earth is Home and we should take care of it if not for us for future generations. We should all work together to save the Earth.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 27th 8:09 AM Alan. Glad that you have no acid rain....ironically perhaps, it is the sulphur dioxide from our power stations, forming sulphurous acid, which results in acid rain in Sweden... This gives the lie to electric cars being environmentally friendly...where does the motive power come from?....yes, that's right...the inefficient, fossil fuelled, power stations....hey ho...no justice. I do wish that all the yoghart weavers & tree huggers would do just a little bit of research before lecturing us on "Saving the Planet".
Captain Muggles User ID: 2309834	Sep 27th 1:54 PM The World........Sigh!!!! I guess we are all doomed! I guess its time to start playing music with all the stops pulled out. (Although, I always do that anyway)!
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Sep 27th 5:27 PM Alan (UK) I do apologize; I did not intend to attribute the "USA is the Great SATAN!" statement to you. It is the rallying cry of Osama bin Laden, and Jihadist across the world that wish to destroy western civilization, not just the USA. In no way did I mean to imply that this came from, or included you. Lewis, you are quite correct. The anti-pollution controls on modern American automobiles are designed to fight photochemical smog. Any additional benefit is serendipity. Unfortunately, American governments (states and federal) usually make bad laws. For example, the throttle device you mentioned. I can’t tell you how many times my VW bug backfired because of that thing! It would have been far better if the law simply stated the acceptable levels of pollutants allowed at idle and at running load, and left the “how” to the engineers. I am sure that the engineers could have come up with much better engines with greater efficiency and lower pollution levels than the legislated contraptions under my hood. My point is that it did not matter that the cars in the 100-mile long traffic jam were highly efficient or not. When a vehicle is not moving but the engine is running it is getting ZERO miles per gallon, basically just wasting fuel and polluting in the process. As for the engineering level of American automobiles, I can only say that foreign competition has had, and will continue to have, a positive effect on the American automobiles. For example, American automobiles used to be designed to basically fall apart after 100,000 miles. Today, due to the superior engineering of European and Japanese automobiles, American automobiles easily last 200,000 miles (with proper maintenance). Also, true sports cars had better be able to handle the twisties or they will be out run on any road course in the world. Straight-line acceleration is only good for drag races unless you can hit the brakes and make the turns at a decent speed. I have been in road-rallies where high-powered Chevrolet Novas were up against VW Bugs. The Novas did not do well since the course had lots of turns. Their acceleration helped in the straight portions of the course, but they had to crawl around the corners. The Bugs simply accelerated as best they could and carried their speed through the corners and around the Novas. And the Bugs were famous for their POOR cornering performance!
Laura User ID: 0721754	Sep 27th 7:12 PM Wade- I thought BUGS were famous for their sticking heaters!
WW2 User ID: 0882114	Sep 27th 7:18 PM Yes, that too! Of course, the heat was taken directly from the exhaust pipes, so if you had a small hole, you got to breath the engine exhaust while trying to stay warm!
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Sep 28th 5:42 AM Laura. Having had many VW Bugs, in varying guises & levels of modification, please do not remind me of the heaters.....took about 20 miles to come into effect & always accompanied by a smell of exhaust....my son used to call them "Hitler's revenge; personal gas chambers". Wade, with regard to fuel consumption, it is a little known fact that, until very recently, cars, from a cold start & regardless of engine size, returned about 6 MPG for the first couple of miles.
Jim B User ID: 1913054	Sep 28th 7:34 AM Local paper had the following article on wage-earners and self-employed by income levels: $1 to 9999 48.5 million (23.8%) 10,000 to 19999 42.3 million (20.8%) 20000 to 29999 32.3 million (15.9%) 30000 to 39999 24.5 million (12%) 40000 to 49999 16.9 million (8.3%) 50000 to 59999 11.3 million (5.5%) 60000 to 69999 7.7 million (3.8%) 70000 to 79999 5.2 million (2.5%) 80000 to 89999 3.5 million (1.7%) 90000 and up 11.2 million (5.5%) So much for income distribution in the USA-- not everyone is rich.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Sep 28th 9:19 AM Guys (of both sexes...) - I'm finding this non-musical stuff too time-demanding and frustrating , so I'm bowing out of all these aggravational topics in favour of the more musical ones. Music is much more satisfying than politics any day, whilst I certainly can't make the world a better place by arguing about it, hopefully I can by playing music..... But just 'cos I've stopped commenting, doesn't mean that anyone else is correct in their assumptions or assertions ! As Spike Milligan (comedian and jazz trumpet player) used to say - "Love, Light, Peace". And his epitaph ? "I told you I was ill." :-))
Jim B User ID: 1913054	Sep 28th 5:12 PM May I remind Alan(UK) that this section of the chatroom is "Good natured Banter" not saxophones so I am bowing out also. On TV yesterday was a piece about the Artic circle ice pack. It stated that 1/3 of the total ice pack has melted, and within 100 years it is estimated it all will be gone, no matter what we do in the short term. I live in the USA in an area what used to be covered with ice flows. All the talk about autos in the old days, you have to remember with electronic chips the ignition systems of today are different than days ago. My 1995 ford big car gets 23MPG in the city driving, 37MPG on the highway. My 2002 Nissan small car gets 27MPG city, 37MPG on the highway. I drive both the same way. As for Ferarri, some cars simply don't sell well in the marketplace and Ferarri sells one that doesn't sell that well. Mercedes also sells cars that constantly have quality control problems.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Sep 28th 7:15 PM (this is a recorded message) "Alan(UK) can't hear you, he's gone......"