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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Good Natured Banter / Why is saxontheweb so boring....

Next 20 Messages

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 13th 4:23 AM
One could often die of old age waiting for a good topic to come along over there.... Are all the interesting people on this site ?

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 13th 5:13 AM
Could it be that all the meaty topics have been done to death....how much is there to say on any topic, especially one as subjective & un-provable as the virtues of different saxophones & their ancilliaries.
Everyone, for different reasons, has their favourite instrument & who is to say that they are wrong.
It has to be said that, unlike this site, SOTW tend to stay on topic....& yes, it does become boring. Here, I can say that, in my opinion, Martins are agricultural & a product of mining & heavy industry, without the risk of a death threat...or can I? :-))

Jim B
User ID: 9781133 Oct 13th 11:19 AM
On behalf of all the Martin saxophones in the world, I must say to Lewis that they were deeply offended by your remark. Sure, when you heat up the pads the tone holes fall off, but that is not their fault!!

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 13th 11:36 AM
So sorry Jim...wonderful sound, but all the engineering finesse of a Harley. At some stage we must bite the bullet.
When a tonehole falls off, be careful that it does not land on your toe.......the A&E departments of most hospitals give similar advice. :-))

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 13th 11:43 AM
Better a dinted toe from a Martin tonehole, than a rupture from blowing a Conn too hard in an abortive attempt to get a 'big sound'......

Ken
User ID: 0171704 Oct 13th 12:19 PM
Is this my cue?... Maybe not yet.....you could blow till you were blue in the face without producing anything but raspberries on my "new" 1967 Conn 10M which is under repair, devoid of all keys just now.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 13th 2:56 PM
Alan....as the Conn "Chu" tenors & altos were known for their robust sound it seems strange that their C Mel sibling,from all reports, did not ....or is it that no-one has tried? With the Microtuner neck, it is not possible to fit a decent mouthpiece. Give it a sporting chance at least.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 14th 4:08 AM
Lewis - I'm only joshing.... Conns can indeed, with the right mouthpiece, give a 'robust sound'.

We mostly all seem agreed that, because of the bore, C-Mels can suffer from a smaller, more focussed sound unless fitted with a (your very aptly described) 'Weapons Grade' mouthpiece. This doesn't do the s/neck Conn any favours - although players not used to, or not needing, the gutsy full-on R&R or R&B sounds wouldn't complain.

I've played a couple of s/neck Conns (lacquer and nickel) with a replacement curved neck, and they can be 'booted' - although surprisingly they both seemed happier on alto ebonite Bergs.....

As you say, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and shorten a good mouthpiece, maybe one of the high-baffle tenor Coufs, just to give them a fair trial. But it will all be academic, as the 'push-away and down' playing position makes s/neck Conns a definite 'no-no' for a shortie like me.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 14th 7:07 AM
Alan....As you know, I use baritone reeds (a la Plas Johnson) on a tenor mouthpiece for use with a C Melody. This results in the most tenor-like sound possible on a C Melody. I cannot wait to try this on a curved neck Conn (with rolled tone holes) currently being built.
Two old & traditional Italian sax. manufactures still use the bore dimentions of vintage Conns for it's huge sound....so I still fail to see how the Conn C Mel has the reputation for a girlie sound..... hopefully we shall see what can be done with a back to back test against the Buescher.
By the way...."shorties" (to quote you) tend to live a lot longer than tall people.....my Mother, at 4ft 10" is 100 & her even shorter sister is 96...& both live alone, unaided & are in mid season form...

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 14th 7:15 AM
Alan...sorry to bother you again but, would you mind fitting a baritone reed (half a grade harder than your usual tenor reed) to your Lawton BB (designed by UZI) & clapping it on your Martin C Mel.
If I am right then this will produce the most tenor-like, hairy R&R sound attainable from any C Melody.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to report back your impressions.....or those of your neighbours! :-))

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 14th 7:55 AM
Lewis - I have just about every musical item (including a violin and bagpipe chanter) to hand, except for ANY baritone reeds.... How remiss of me - as I have a bari mpc and lig ! I'll have to look out for some Rico Royal 3 or 3.5 ones on ebay, as the local music shop shares my affliction.

(which is why) I did actually think about that a while back (based on your observations) but lost interest after I checked at the local shop. You may well laugh at my 8*BB Scud, but I just watched James Carter playing, and he got the most amazing range of tenor sounds out of his 7*BB.

In their defence, Conn's (most sizes) don't really have a 'girlie' reputation, but they do have a slightly more focussed sound than say Buescher or Martin. Add the fact that a lot of old-timer Conn players - older than me - used metal Links which have a slightly hollow 'ring' in their sound, combine the two and you got a beatifully big but lyrical sound. But the B's and M's could sound dirtier or rougher with ease. So lets be diplomatic and say that Conns have/had a more 'sophisticated' sound, OK ? Of course, a Weapons Grade mouthpiece and a dirty player can change all that......

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 14th 9:14 AM
Thanks Alan......& far from laughing at your BB "Scud" Lawton, I am in awe of it.

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 14th 1:17 PM
Lewis - yet strangely I've not recorded any of my 'sound samples' with it, seemed a little too edgy for just doodling ! Must do some....

Graeme NZ
User ID: 9245273 Oct 14th 4:16 PM
Alan UK wrote:
We mostly all seem agreed that, because of the bore, C-Mels can suffer from a smaller, more focussed sound unless .......

What do you mean suffer! You guys are missing the point trying to turn a C-mel into a tenor. Although the only reason I got mine was because of the pitch the smaller more focussed sound is a giant plus for what I'm doing.

I'm only kidding you about missing the point, but don't forget what one person sees as a negative for another it may be a positive. What about Anke's Vito? Does it have a bigger bore as well as a bigger bell? And a bigger more tenor-like tone?

Alan (UK)
User ID: 8200143 Oct 14th 8:28 PM
Understood Graeme, but when you play it's probably as the 'only' sax, and potentially the loudest instrument - whatever the level of your output, which (as you say) balances better as a moderate voice.

Some of us like to think the C-Mel can 'hold its own' in a mixed wind-brass environment, and I only have to have alto, C-Mel and tenor racked up to find the C-mel can often be the gentler of the three. Not what you always need in a competitive environment. Hence talk of 'Weapons Grade' mouthpieces, to even the odds.

And I did say "CAN suffer", not 'does'. The very very plus factor is that on C-Mel/C-Sop/C-Clari (and of course flute/picc)I can read off a keyboard players music/chords (and fingers) without Eb/Bb transposition and relative pitch hangups - so that's why I love them so much. Don't shoot me, I'm only being a realist and devils advocate at the same time.....
;-))

Graeme NZ
User ID: 9245273 Oct 14th 11:31 PM
I said I was only kidding and I do understand the issue of holding your own. I still want to know if Ankes Vito has a larger bore and if yes does it also have a larger tone?

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Oct 15th 5:36 AM
Graeme....All this length/bore ratio stuff was discussed in detail on another thread recently. In essence, the length/bore ratio of any given sax. size must remain within quite small limits. Do not be mis-lead by the size of the bell flare....this has no bearing on the sound...simply a macho thing.....needs little imagination to see what is implied!

Graeme NZ
User ID: 9781133 Oct 15th 3:39 PM
Lewis - I understand your point and have read that other thread BUT it has often been stated that the C-mel has a bore similar to an alto which combined with a longer length gives it its own sound. There is no reason why the bore couldn't be made closer to a tenor and then perhaps the sound might be closer to that of a tenor. I am not getting sidetracked by the size of the bell flare but Ankes Vito C-mel is different in some other dimmensions as well so I was curious about the bore size.

Guwapo
User ID: 2289444 Oct 16th 7:21 AM
My Buescher alto aristocrat with 400 bell definately has a bigger flared bell that any other alto I've seen or tried. It does sound louder, but I've not measured this in decidels.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Oct 16th 9:40 PM
People... This thread must be a record for even this forum. After the original topic was posted (Why is SOTW so boring?) The next 17 posts have nothing to do with the original topic! A classic example of Short Attention Spanitus! You guys have too much idle time on your hands! I know you'll fault me on this and rag me out; But YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!

Next 20 Messages

Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 13th 4:23 AM One could often die of old age waiting for a good topic to come along over there.... Are all the interesting people on this site ?
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 13th 5:13 AM Could it be that all the meaty topics have been done to death....how much is there to say on any topic, especially one as subjective & un-provable as the virtues of different saxophones & their ancilliaries. Everyone, for different reasons, has their favourite instrument & who is to say that they are wrong. It has to be said that, unlike this site, SOTW tend to stay on topic....& yes, it does become boring. Here, I can say that, in my opinion, Martins are agricultural & a product of mining & heavy industry, without the risk of a death threat...or can I? :-))
Jim B User ID: 9781133	Oct 13th 11:19 AM On behalf of all the Martin saxophones in the world, I must say to Lewis that they were deeply offended by your remark. Sure, when you heat up the pads the tone holes fall off, but that is not their fault!!
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 13th 11:36 AM So sorry Jim...wonderful sound, but all the engineering finesse of a Harley. At some stage we must bite the bullet. When a tonehole falls off, be careful that it does not land on your toe.......the A&E departments of most hospitals give similar advice. :-))
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 13th 11:43 AM Better a dinted toe from a Martin tonehole, than a rupture from blowing a Conn too hard in an abortive attempt to get a 'big sound'......
Ken User ID: 0171704	Oct 13th 12:19 PM Is this my cue?... Maybe not yet.....you could blow till you were blue in the face without producing anything but raspberries on my "new" 1967 Conn 10M which is under repair, devoid of all keys just now.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 13th 2:56 PM Alan....as the Conn "Chu" tenors & altos were known for their robust sound it seems strange that their C Mel sibling,from all reports, did not ....or is it that no-one has tried? With the Microtuner neck, it is not possible to fit a decent mouthpiece. Give it a sporting chance at least.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 14th 4:08 AM Lewis - I'm only joshing.... Conns can indeed, with the right mouthpiece, give a 'robust sound'. We mostly all seem agreed that, because of the bore, C-Mels can suffer from a smaller, more focussed sound unless fitted with a (your very aptly described) 'Weapons Grade' mouthpiece. This doesn't do the s/neck Conn any favours - although players not used to, or not needing, the gutsy full-on R&R or R&B sounds wouldn't complain. I've played a couple of s/neck Conns (lacquer and nickel) with a replacement curved neck, and they can be 'booted' - although surprisingly they both seemed happier on alto ebonite Bergs..... As you say, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and shorten a good mouthpiece, maybe one of the high-baffle tenor Coufs, just to give them a fair trial. But it will all be academic, as the 'push-away and down' playing position makes s/neck Conns a definite 'no-no' for a shortie like me.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 14th 7:07 AM Alan....As you know, I use baritone reeds (a la Plas Johnson) on a tenor mouthpiece for use with a C Melody. This results in the most tenor-like sound possible on a C Melody. I cannot wait to try this on a curved neck Conn (with rolled tone holes) currently being built. Two old & traditional Italian sax. manufactures still use the bore dimentions of vintage Conns for it's huge sound....so I still fail to see how the Conn C Mel has the reputation for a girlie sound..... hopefully we shall see what can be done with a back to back test against the Buescher. By the way...."shorties" (to quote you) tend to live a lot longer than tall people.....my Mother, at 4ft 10" is 100 & her even shorter sister is 96...& both live alone, unaided & are in mid season form...
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 14th 7:15 AM Alan...sorry to bother you again but, would you mind fitting a baritone reed (half a grade harder than your usual tenor reed) to your Lawton BB (designed by UZI) & clapping it on your Martin C Mel. If I am right then this will produce the most tenor-like, hairy R&R sound attainable from any C Melody. Perhaps you would be kind enough to report back your impressions.....or those of your neighbours! :-))
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 14th 7:55 AM Lewis - I have just about every musical item (including a violin and bagpipe chanter) to hand, except for ANY baritone reeds.... How remiss of me - as I have a bari mpc and lig ! I'll have to look out for some Rico Royal 3 or 3.5 ones on ebay, as the local music shop shares my affliction. (which is why) I did actually think about that a while back (based on your observations) but lost interest after I checked at the local shop. You may well laugh at my 8BB Scud, but I just watched James Carter playing, and he got the most amazing range of tenor sounds out of his 7BB. In their defence, Conn's (most sizes) don't really have a 'girlie' reputation, but they do have a slightly more focussed sound than say Buescher or Martin. Add the fact that a lot of old-timer Conn players - older than me - used metal Links which have a slightly hollow 'ring' in their sound, combine the two and you got a beatifully big but lyrical sound. But the B's and M's could sound dirtier or rougher with ease. So lets be diplomatic and say that Conns have/had a more 'sophisticated' sound, OK ? Of course, a Weapons Grade mouthpiece and a dirty player can change all that......
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 14th 9:14 AM Thanks Alan......& far from laughing at your BB "Scud" Lawton, I am in awe of it.
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 14th 1:17 PM Lewis - yet strangely I've not recorded any of my 'sound samples' with it, seemed a little too edgy for just doodling ! Must do some....
Graeme NZ User ID: 9245273	Oct 14th 4:16 PM Alan UK wrote: We mostly all seem agreed that, because of the bore, C-Mels can suffer from a smaller, more focussed sound unless ....... What do you mean suffer! You guys are missing the point trying to turn a C-mel into a tenor. Although the only reason I got mine was because of the pitch the smaller more focussed sound is a giant plus for what I'm doing. I'm only kidding you about missing the point, but don't forget what one person sees as a negative for another it may be a positive. What about Anke's Vito? Does it have a bigger bore as well as a bigger bell? And a bigger more tenor-like tone?
Alan (UK) User ID: 8200143	Oct 14th 8:28 PM Understood Graeme, but when you play it's probably as the 'only' sax, and potentially the loudest instrument - whatever the level of your output, which (as you say) balances better as a moderate voice. Some of us like to think the C-Mel can 'hold its own' in a mixed wind-brass environment, and I only have to have alto, C-Mel and tenor racked up to find the C-mel can often be the gentler of the three. Not what you always need in a competitive environment. Hence talk of 'Weapons Grade' mouthpieces, to even the odds. And I did say "CAN suffer", not 'does'. The very very plus factor is that on C-Mel/C-Sop/C-Clari (and of course flute/picc)I can read off a keyboard players music/chords (and fingers) without Eb/Bb transposition and relative pitch hangups - so that's why I love them so much. Don't shoot me, I'm only being a realist and devils advocate at the same time..... ;-))
Graeme NZ User ID: 9245273	Oct 14th 11:31 PM I said I was only kidding and I do understand the issue of holding your own. I still want to know if Ankes Vito has a larger bore and if yes does it also have a larger tone?
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Oct 15th 5:36 AM Graeme....All this length/bore ratio stuff was discussed in detail on another thread recently. In essence, the length/bore ratio of any given sax. size must remain within quite small limits. Do not be mis-lead by the size of the bell flare....this has no bearing on the sound...simply a macho thing.....needs little imagination to see what is implied!
Graeme NZ User ID: 9781133	Oct 15th 3:39 PM Lewis - I understand your point and have read that other thread BUT it has often been stated that the C-mel has a bore similar to an alto which combined with a longer length gives it its own sound. There is no reason why the bore couldn't be made closer to a tenor and then perhaps the sound might be closer to that of a tenor. I am not getting sidetracked by the size of the bell flare but Ankes Vito C-mel is different in some other dimmensions as well so I was curious about the bore size.
Guwapo User ID: 2289444	Oct 16th 7:21 AM My Buescher alto aristocrat with 400 bell definately has a bigger flared bell that any other alto I've seen or tried. It does sound louder, but I've not measured this in decidels.
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Oct 16th 9:40 PM People... This thread must be a record for even this forum. After the original topic was posted (Why is SOTW so boring?) The next 17 posts have nothing to do with the original topic! A classic example of Short Attention Spanitus! You guys have too much idle time on your hands! I know you'll fault me on this and rag me out; But YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!