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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Good Natured Banter / Copyright police

Next 20 Messages

Jim B
User ID: 1913054 Nov 22nd 8:51 AM
Recently the copyright police (ASCAP) came to our town. A local small cafe had a 4 piece band playing out of fake books. ASCAP said that the owner was to pay to ASCAP $5 for every table in the cafe. What happened? The owner cancelled live music and went to recorded music. So much for ASCAP keeping live music "alive".This is the 2nd time I have heard about ASCAP. The first time someone came into a music store and begged the owner for a fake book. When the owner finally said "ok ok already!" the buyer said "gottcha".

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 22nd 9:04 AM
Well Jim, I'm a dead man then - I'm working on a 'Freebies' page on my website (coming shortly) where you can download bits including all the Fake Books currently seemingly 'in the public domain'. Or as sold on home-made CD on ebay !!!!

Of course this cannot include Sher's New Real Books - luckily I got a 'personal' copy of those before the copyright police came by..... Sssshhh - please don't ask for those !

Ralph
User ID: 7949453 Nov 22nd 11:02 AM
My area (San Diego County) has been hit by the "ASCAP POLICE". Several coffeshops that had decent open mic music and weekend entertainment have either stop offering music or have closed. When we first started doing open mics, there wasn't too much of a problem. But as the local acoustic newspaper started listing the locations of the open mics, ASCAP started appearing. My guitar instructor used to play at Shakey's Pizza Parlour years ago (Bluegrass and folk) ASCAP came by and said either pay up or public domain material only. But the crowd wasn't up to public domain only songs. End result: NO MORE MUSIC!

Also the San Diego Police have a busker licensing system. A retired couple (from the San Diego Mandolin Orchestra) were praticing in Balboa Park. They had their cases opened to hold their music and almost got tickets since they didn't have the "PROPER" Busker permits.

Jim B
User ID: 8297563 Nov 22nd 11:11 AM
I understand in the USA public domain is anything over 50 years (unless copyrighted again). In Europe it is something like 75 years.ASCAP can force a web site to close by saying they are bringing legal action. I have a VCR programmer unit called VCR plus. You put in a number and it will turn the VCR on and off on the correct channel.VCR plus "sells" the codes to TV guide. Internet program exists to put in data and out comes the correct numbers to punch in. No site in USA exists; I had to go to Germany site to see the program to encode/decode. Now I can type the numbers 81380 and the VCR will turn on/off and record a show.Threatened legal action closed the USA sites; maybe China has needed sites??

Ralph
User ID: 7949453 Nov 22nd 11:52 AM
I understand the "Happy Birthday to You" copyright expires in 15 or 20 years. I had always wondered why some restaurants had a funky birthday song of their own until I learned about the copyright business about 10 years ago.

CP2
User ID: 9795313 Nov 22nd 5:33 PM
Here is an exerpt from freqeuntly asked questions, 'How long does a copyright last?' on the US Copyright web sight:

copyright.gov

"As a general rule, for works created after Jan. 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first".

Public domain in regards to songs, are either songs that the copyright has run out or songs that were composed before the copyright laws were made. As an example the song Greensleeves.

All the information you will ever want to know about US copyright is on this site: copyright.gov

CP2
User ID: 9795313 Nov 22nd 6:39 PM
I have mixed feelings with regards to the copyright laws and the copyright police (ASCAP). On one side of the coin I agree that live music at the lowest levels is being stifled by the copyright laws. But on the other side of the coin, if a musician or group were to perform any of my copyrighted songs (12 to date) I would want the royalties I deserve according to the copyright laws. And who is responsible for paying those royalties? The establishments who offer or promote live music for their customers. And ultimately it is the customer that pays. How are these royalties collected and dispersed to the copyright holder, the bad guys ASCAP and BMI.

Ralph
User ID: 7949453 Nov 22nd 9:38 PM
I've even heard of coffee shops charging the musician $5 to perform at an open mic. I guess to help cover the ASCAP fees. I can't see how the copyright holder gets their money from ASCAP for music performed at various venues by others, since they don't keep track of what songs are being performed. ASCAP and BMI probably just keep the money for themselves. It seems the copyright holder only receives their royalties from sales of their recordings and/or by others using their material. But it is the customer who ends up paying since the ASCAP fee are part of the overhead of the shop.

CP2
User ID: 9795313 Nov 23rd 12:09 AM
Ralph.....The way I understand it is that copyright holders don't get paid a royalty every time their song gets played. They get paid royalties for averaged guesstimates of times their song is played, whether live or recorded, in a given period of time. Also, they get paid from sales, which is easier to keep track of. ASCAP and BMI do not keep the money for themselves. They are in the business of distributing royalties to copyright holders for a fee.

When we buy a cd, part of the cost is royalties to the copyright holders. Why shouldn't it be the same for patrons in a venue where live music is consumed by them? When I go to a Jazz club and listen to live Jazz, the drinks and or food are usually a little bit higher than a cafe or resturant because of hidden fees.....such as royalties. If one does not like that, don't go to the clubs.

A far as coffee shops charging the performers to play, that's rediculess. That is a rip off. The royalty fees should come out of their profits because the live music will usually bring in more business.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 23rd 3:40 AM
In the UK it used to be that a 'Performing Rights' list had to be submitted for each performance, so that an accurate record was kept for royalties payments. This was never really enforced...

Sillier even, we recently had a national 'kids charity' day, and a local quartet announced (newspapers, tv etc.) it was going to try and play one number in all the pubs in the area - the idea to be sponsored and collect lots of money for charity.

At the last moment the local council warned against this on the basis that most pubs had a music licence for 'two musicians' only, and any contravention could result in loss of 'said music licence' ! So the quartet still went ahead - two musicians inside, two outside.

I suppose we should be lucky that the two external chaps didn't get arrested for busking !

On the subject of which, I once tried to apply for a local buskers licence. I got so fed up with being passed form office to office that I finally asked the question "Do you actually issue buskers licences ?" The answer was "No, not really, we try to keep (musical) beggars of the street, this way we have an excuse to move them on...." Grrr.

So guys, don't become a busking beggar.... You do it better in the US. In Boston (sorry, 'Bwaston') I was amuseded by a roller-skating tenor player. He had an artificial 'third hand' holding a tin cup for the money. Guess the skates were for a quick getaway, his playing wasn't that bad !

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Nov 23rd 4:30 AM
The music licence refered to states "two musicians AND A DRUMMER"...clearly, in the eyes of the "Authorities", a drummer is something other than a musician...who am I to argue?

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 23rd 4:51 AM
I wonder how they'd categorise a bass player with a hi-hat pedal ? I've seen that in small combo's.

Jim B
User ID: 1913054 Nov 23rd 7:57 AM
A drummer is a guy who hangs around with musicians.

Ralph
User ID: 7949453 Nov 23rd 8:39 AM
I was told that in large groups, if one can't play their music, they are given two sticks and become drummers. If they still can't hack it, they take one stick away and they become conductors.

This came by way of my Orchestra Conductor. The same person that introduced me to the C-Melody.

Captain Muggles
User ID: 0157524 Nov 23rd 8:44 AM
Jim B.....Unfortunately, in this day and age, a drummer is usually a little electronic box or a computer program. They are the first to be cut from a gig when downsizing is required!

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 23rd 8:55 AM
And downnoising.. My left ear is well shot from almost always having a drummer on that side !

CP2
User ID: 9795313 Nov 23rd 10:18 AM
Must be the day for bashing drummers. You guys are bad.

However, all of the drummers I've run into have been at the very least, slightly eccentric.

Then, there are bass players.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 23rd 2:12 PM
Musicians bash drummers, drummers bash drums.....

Bass players have scrambled brains from all the low frequencies, and supreme resentment from never being allowed to play a melody line (or even full chords).... After all, they're just stringed 'Sousa' players.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Nov 23rd 2:15 PM
All of that, with usually a vacant expression.....however, fretless electric basses do have a certain je ne sais quoi.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 23rd 2:20 PM
Yes, and 'fretless' means that some effort has to go into memorising where the notes are - almost as good as a double bass player.

As a matter of interest, when improvising I like to follow the bass lines - as a more solid indication of chord progressions. In fact, when a bass player once got it wrong, I followed him. He was shocked, to say the least, that anyone was really listening to him. Sad...

Next 20 Messages

Jim B User ID: 1913054	Nov 22nd 8:51 AM Recently the copyright police (ASCAP) came to our town. A local small cafe had a 4 piece band playing out of fake books. ASCAP said that the owner was to pay to ASCAP $5 for every table in the cafe. What happened? The owner cancelled live music and went to recorded music. So much for ASCAP keeping live music "alive".This is the 2nd time I have heard about ASCAP. The first time someone came into a music store and begged the owner for a fake book. When the owner finally said "ok ok already!" the buyer said "gottcha".
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 22nd 9:04 AM Well Jim, I'm a dead man then - I'm working on a 'Freebies' page on my website (coming shortly) where you can download bits including all the Fake Books currently seemingly 'in the public domain'. Or as sold on home-made CD on ebay !!!! Of course this cannot include Sher's New Real Books - luckily I got a 'personal' copy of those before the copyright police came by..... Sssshhh - please don't ask for those !
Ralph User ID: 7949453	Nov 22nd 11:02 AM My area (San Diego County) has been hit by the "ASCAP POLICE". Several coffeshops that had decent open mic music and weekend entertainment have either stop offering music or have closed. When we first started doing open mics, there wasn't too much of a problem. But as the local acoustic newspaper started listing the locations of the open mics, ASCAP started appearing. My guitar instructor used to play at Shakey's Pizza Parlour years ago (Bluegrass and folk) ASCAP came by and said either pay up or public domain material only. But the crowd wasn't up to public domain only songs. End result: NO MORE MUSIC! Also the San Diego Police have a busker licensing system. A retired couple (from the San Diego Mandolin Orchestra) were praticing in Balboa Park. They had their cases opened to hold their music and almost got tickets since they didn't have the "PROPER" Busker permits.
Jim B User ID: 8297563	Nov 22nd 11:11 AM I understand in the USA public domain is anything over 50 years (unless copyrighted again). In Europe it is something like 75 years.ASCAP can force a web site to close by saying they are bringing legal action. I have a VCR programmer unit called VCR plus. You put in a number and it will turn the VCR on and off on the correct channel.VCR plus "sells" the codes to TV guide. Internet program exists to put in data and out comes the correct numbers to punch in. No site in USA exists; I had to go to Germany site to see the program to encode/decode. Now I can type the numbers 81380 and the VCR will turn on/off and record a show.Threatened legal action closed the USA sites; maybe China has needed sites??
Ralph User ID: 7949453	Nov 22nd 11:52 AM I understand the "Happy Birthday to You" copyright expires in 15 or 20 years. I had always wondered why some restaurants had a funky birthday song of their own until I learned about the copyright business about 10 years ago.
CP2 User ID: 9795313	Nov 22nd 5:33 PM Here is an exerpt from freqeuntly asked questions, 'How long does a copyright last?' on the US Copyright web sight: copyright.gov "As a general rule, for works created after Jan. 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first". Public domain in regards to songs, are either songs that the copyright has run out or songs that were composed before the copyright laws were made. As an example the song Greensleeves. All the information you will ever want to know about US copyright is on this site: copyright.gov
CP2 User ID: 9795313	Nov 22nd 6:39 PM I have mixed feelings with regards to the copyright laws and the copyright police (ASCAP). On one side of the coin I agree that live music at the lowest levels is being stifled by the copyright laws. But on the other side of the coin, if a musician or group were to perform any of my copyrighted songs (12 to date) I would want the royalties I deserve according to the copyright laws. And who is responsible for paying those royalties? The establishments who offer or promote live music for their customers. And ultimately it is the customer that pays. How are these royalties collected and dispersed to the copyright holder, the bad guys ASCAP and BMI.
Ralph User ID: 7949453	Nov 22nd 9:38 PM I've even heard of coffee shops charging the musician $5 to perform at an open mic. I guess to help cover the ASCAP fees. I can't see how the copyright holder gets their money from ASCAP for music performed at various venues by others, since they don't keep track of what songs are being performed. ASCAP and BMI probably just keep the money for themselves. It seems the copyright holder only receives their royalties from sales of their recordings and/or by others using their material. But it is the customer who ends up paying since the ASCAP fee are part of the overhead of the shop.
CP2 User ID: 9795313	Nov 23rd 12:09 AM Ralph.....The way I understand it is that copyright holders don't get paid a royalty every time their song gets played. They get paid royalties for averaged guesstimates of times their song is played, whether live or recorded, in a given period of time. Also, they get paid from sales, which is easier to keep track of. ASCAP and BMI do not keep the money for themselves. They are in the business of distributing royalties to copyright holders for a fee. When we buy a cd, part of the cost is royalties to the copyright holders. Why shouldn't it be the same for patrons in a venue where live music is consumed by them? When I go to a Jazz club and listen to live Jazz, the drinks and or food are usually a little bit higher than a cafe or resturant because of hidden fees.....such as royalties. If one does not like that, don't go to the clubs. A far as coffee shops charging the performers to play, that's rediculess. That is a rip off. The royalty fees should come out of their profits because the live music will usually bring in more business.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 23rd 3:40 AM In the UK it used to be that a 'Performing Rights' list had to be submitted for each performance, so that an accurate record was kept for royalties payments. This was never really enforced... Sillier even, we recently had a national 'kids charity' day, and a local quartet announced (newspapers, tv etc.) it was going to try and play one number in all the pubs in the area - the idea to be sponsored and collect lots of money for charity. At the last moment the local council warned against this on the basis that most pubs had a music licence for 'two musicians' only, and any contravention could result in loss of 'said music licence' ! So the quartet still went ahead - two musicians inside, two outside. I suppose we should be lucky that the two external chaps didn't get arrested for busking ! On the subject of which, I once tried to apply for a local buskers licence. I got so fed up with being passed form office to office that I finally asked the question "Do you actually issue buskers licences ?" The answer was "No, not really, we try to keep (musical) beggars of the street, this way we have an excuse to move them on...." Grrr. So guys, don't become a busking beggar.... You do it better in the US. In Boston (sorry, 'Bwaston') I was amuseded by a roller-skating tenor player. He had an artificial 'third hand' holding a tin cup for the money. Guess the skates were for a quick getaway, his playing wasn't that bad !
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Nov 23rd 4:30 AM The music licence refered to states "two musicians AND A DRUMMER"...clearly, in the eyes of the "Authorities", a drummer is something other than a musician...who am I to argue?
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 23rd 4:51 AM I wonder how they'd categorise a bass player with a hi-hat pedal ? I've seen that in small combo's.
Jim B User ID: 1913054	Nov 23rd 7:57 AM A drummer is a guy who hangs around with musicians.
Ralph User ID: 7949453	Nov 23rd 8:39 AM I was told that in large groups, if one can't play their music, they are given two sticks and become drummers. If they still can't hack it, they take one stick away and they become conductors. This came by way of my Orchestra Conductor. The same person that introduced me to the C-Melody.
Captain Muggles User ID: 0157524	Nov 23rd 8:44 AM Jim B.....Unfortunately, in this day and age, a drummer is usually a little electronic box or a computer program. They are the first to be cut from a gig when downsizing is required!
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 23rd 8:55 AM And downnoising.. My left ear is well shot from almost always having a drummer on that side !
CP2 User ID: 9795313	Nov 23rd 10:18 AM Must be the day for bashing drummers. You guys are bad. However, all of the drummers I've run into have been at the very least, slightly eccentric. Then, there are bass players.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 23rd 2:12 PM Musicians bash drummers, drummers bash drums..... Bass players have scrambled brains from all the low frequencies, and supreme resentment from never being allowed to play a melody line (or even full chords).... After all, they're just stringed 'Sousa' players.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Nov 23rd 2:15 PM All of that, with usually a vacant expression.....however, fretless electric basses do have a certain je ne sais quoi.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 23rd 2:20 PM Yes, and 'fretless' means that some effort has to go into memorising where the notes are - almost as good as a double bass player. As a matter of interest, when improvising I like to follow the bass lines - as a more solid indication of chord progressions. In fact, when a bass player once got it wrong, I followed him. He was shocked, to say the least, that anyone was really listening to him. Sad...