C Melody Saxophone Forum

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C Melody Saxophone Forum / Marketplace / Why ?

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Oct 28th 11:32 PM
Why do some C-Mels on ebay just take off. This average'ish Buescher, admittedly in fair nick -

http://cgi.ebay.com/Buescher-C-Melody-True-Tone-Low-Pitch-Saxaphone_W0QQitemZ7360766436QQcategoryZ64455QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

- ( item Z7360766436 if easier ) is past $430 ! The seller is totally upfront about a complete repad, springs needed, rough case etc. I just looked out of the window, and it's not a full moon.....

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Oct 28th 11:34 PM
P.S I note a few sellers are now referring to gold-wash bells as 'copper bell'..... Maybe that's it ?

Sam
User ID: 8506593 Oct 29th 1:23 AM
There's also a King/Cleveland, in cosmetically good shape, but appears clearly to be bent forward, from the neckstrap hook ring upwards.

Graeme NZ
User ID: 9781133 Oct 30th 7:14 PM
Alan: I seem to recall that the "gold" wash was gold and the "rose gold" wash was in fact copper. You're right about prices varying a lot!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Oct 30th 8:38 PM
Alan UK......I think it just happens to depend on who the people are that are bidding. Sometimes you may have 3 or 4 knowledgeable people bidding along with 2 other uninformed bidders. When the smart bidders drop out, the other 2 uninformed ones will get caught up in a bidding frenzy, and before you know it, the price will be outrageous. Especially if the seller misrepresents the product like our former poster, I believe his name was Carlos (though I may be wrong on his name); You know, the one who said he was a death thrash drummer or something like that. Someone not knowing and seeing his ad would think that they were bidding on a rare antique, when in fact it was a run of the mill C Melody worth about $200 to $250 US dollars Tops!

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Oct 30th 8:40 PM
Alan UK......I checked on that sellers name. I was Jamal!

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Oct 31st 3:36 AM
Capt - you are quite right about the bidding. It peaked at that price, with a novice bidder, a full two days before the end of the auction, and then never moved ! I guess they all said "Ooops!".

When (and sadly it has to be soon, lean pickings loom...) I start selling again on ebay, I think I'm going to cut back on the waffle, and let a raft of pictures sell themselves. Unless it's a very special sax or finish, with the amount of C-Mels now in circulation and indeed use, I think words like 'rare' are now slightly taking the mickey.

About the 'inside of the bell, from the ads on -
http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/finishes.htm

- Buescher state - "inside of bell gold plated" for their silver finish ones, Conn state "gold plate and burnished on the inside" for silver ones, and good old Lyon & Healy (on their pre-stencil C-Mels) go right over the top with "inside of bell heavily gold-plated and hand burnished" !! Wow !

I must see if I can find any 20's ads or catalogue pages that just mention it as a 'wash' - anyone else have that confirmed on period descriptions ? Or is the 'gold/copper wash' something that we've come up with because it seems to wear off relatively easily ?

Chiff
User ID: 0485244 Oct 31st 4:27 AM
There's a page on washes on the Cybersax site...called a wahs as the finish not thick enough to be called palting and that post 1925 Buescher's had the copper wash hence "rose".

Chiff
User ID: 0485244 Oct 31st 4:28 AM
Or even called a wash...>blush<

Chiff
User ID: 0485244 Oct 31st 5:19 AM
Just had a look at the link above. It's the same bidder who bunged up an unrestored Buescher C Mel up to $300.

More to the point it's the same bidder who just paid $4800 for an alto Martin with the just one feedback and that from a no longer registered user...see the ebay board on SOTW.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Oct 31st 6:24 AM
I must remember to contact that bidder then, when I start selling again......

Thanks for the info on 'wahs' and 'palting' Chiff.
:-))

DeanoTheSaxman (UK)
User ID: 0053014 Oct 31st 6:08 PM
Have heard of Gold wash inside bell alright, but have never seen an old add with this stated?

Captain Muggles
User ID: 9342693 Nov 4th 11:25 AM
Deano.....Lyon and Healy's old ads stated this!

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 4th 12:37 PM
There's a 1926 Lyon & Healy catalogue at -

http://www.2multiples.com/hotdance/gallery/lyon/lh12

- where it says 'inside of bell heavily gold-plated', do you have different info ?

Captain Muggles
User ID: 8945823 Nov 4th 8:21 PM
Alan & Deano......I stand corrected! I checked all my old catalogs and only the Buescher one says "Gold Burnished inside of bell", not gold washed. It was the letters shed on the end of burnished that stuck in my mind, so that I thought I remembered washed not burnished. I then did some extensive research and found many, many descriptions given by a lot of people using the term "Gold Wash Inside of the Bell"; But I guess it is just one of those things that was mistakingly passed down through time and adopted as the common description of the Gold Burnished Inside of Bell to being described as a Gold Wash! Sorry. But now I will make it a relentless search on my part to find the origin of this term "Gold Wash"!

DeanoTheSaxman (UK)
User ID: 0053014 Nov 5th 3:22 AM
OK, Cheers for that one Captain.

cmelodysax-uk
User ID: 8200143 Nov 5th 3:54 AM
Capt/Deano - I reckon that, because of the ease it gets rubbed away, history has latched onto 'gold wash' as an apt description.

I should imagine that the gold had to be 'plated' to make it stick (obvious ?), so no lies were told by the manufacturers, but maybe they didn't plate quite as thickly as they should have - thinking, well, it's inside the bell, won't get much wear there........

Arf Arf.

Lewis Pelham.
User ID: 9865253 Nov 5th 6:20 AM
It is my understanding that "flash gold plating" & "gold wash" are the same thing...not as heavily plated as Gold Plating proper (but please do not ask what the precise difference is). Gold wash is so light as to allow any underlying plated surface to shew through....many gold washes are described as "Rose Gold", which, as I understand it, are previously copper plated with a very thin gold wash applied to allow the colour of the copper to affect the final finish colour.

DeanoTheSaxman (UK)
User ID: 0053014 Nov 5th 7:51 AM
Alan, I'm working on a Holton, it has gold wash in the bell, although it rubbs off very easily, it's more like a varnish kind of thing, it doesn't appear to be plated, more like a resin sticky feeling when it's polished with silver cleaner, ever noticed how the staining comes off under this stuff when polished???

soybean
User ID: 0401124 Apr 25th 5:11 PM
(2008) Buyers on ebay can be swayed by pretty pictures and elaborate descriptions. (sadly)

cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Oct 28th 11:32 PM Why do some C-Mels on ebay just take off. This average'ish Buescher, admittedly in fair nick - http://cgi.ebay.com/Buescher-C-Melody-True-Tone-Low-Pitch-Saxaphone_W0QQitemZ7360766436QQcategoryZ64455QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - ( item Z7360766436 if easier ) is past $430 ! The seller is totally upfront about a complete repad, springs needed, rough case etc. I just looked out of the window, and it's not a full moon.....
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Oct 28th 11:34 PM P.S I note a few sellers are now referring to gold-wash bells as 'copper bell'..... Maybe that's it ?
Sam User ID: 8506593	Oct 29th 1:23 AM There's also a King/Cleveland, in cosmetically good shape, but appears clearly to be bent forward, from the neckstrap hook ring upwards.
Graeme NZ User ID: 9781133	Oct 30th 7:14 PM Alan: I seem to recall that the "gold" wash was gold and the "rose gold" wash was in fact copper. You're right about prices varying a lot!
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Oct 30th 8:38 PM Alan UK......I think it just happens to depend on who the people are that are bidding. Sometimes you may have 3 or 4 knowledgeable people bidding along with 2 other uninformed bidders. When the smart bidders drop out, the other 2 uninformed ones will get caught up in a bidding frenzy, and before you know it, the price will be outrageous. Especially if the seller misrepresents the product like our former poster, I believe his name was Carlos (though I may be wrong on his name); You know, the one who said he was a death thrash drummer or something like that. Someone not knowing and seeing his ad would think that they were bidding on a rare antique, when in fact it was a run of the mill C Melody worth about $200 to $250 US dollars Tops!
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Oct 30th 8:40 PM Alan UK......I checked on that sellers name. I was Jamal!
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Oct 31st 3:36 AM Capt - you are quite right about the bidding. It peaked at that price, with a novice bidder, a full two days before the end of the auction, and then never moved ! I guess they all said "Ooops!". When (and sadly it has to be soon, lean pickings loom...) I start selling again on ebay, I think I'm going to cut back on the waffle, and let a raft of pictures sell themselves. Unless it's a very special sax or finish, with the amount of C-Mels now in circulation and indeed use, I think words like 'rare' are now slightly taking the mickey. About the 'inside of the bell, from the ads on - http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/finishes.htm - Buescher state - "inside of bell gold plated" for their silver finish ones, Conn state "gold plate and burnished on the inside" for silver ones, and good old Lyon & Healy (on their pre-stencil C-Mels) go right over the top with "inside of bell heavily gold-plated and hand burnished" !! Wow ! I must see if I can find any 20's ads or catalogue pages that just mention it as a 'wash' - anyone else have that confirmed on period descriptions ? Or is the 'gold/copper wash' something that we've come up with because it seems to wear off relatively easily ?
Chiff User ID: 0485244	Oct 31st 4:27 AM There's a page on washes on the Cybersax site...called a wahs as the finish not thick enough to be called palting and that post 1925 Buescher's had the copper wash hence "rose".
Chiff User ID: 0485244	Oct 31st 4:28 AM Or even called a wash...>blush<
Chiff User ID: 0485244	Oct 31st 5:19 AM Just had a look at the link above. It's the same bidder who bunged up an unrestored Buescher C Mel up to $300. More to the point it's the same bidder who just paid $4800 for an alto Martin with the just one feedback and that from a no longer registered user...see the ebay board on SOTW.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Oct 31st 6:24 AM I must remember to contact that bidder then, when I start selling again...... Thanks for the info on 'wahs' and 'palting' Chiff. :-))
DeanoTheSaxman (UK) User ID: 0053014	Oct 31st 6:08 PM Have heard of Gold wash inside bell alright, but have never seen an old add with this stated?
Captain Muggles User ID: 9342693	Nov 4th 11:25 AM Deano.....Lyon and Healy's old ads stated this!
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 4th 12:37 PM There's a 1926 Lyon & Healy catalogue at - http://www.2multiples.com/hotdance/gallery/lyon/lh12 - where it says 'inside of bell heavily gold-plated', do you have different info ?
Captain Muggles User ID: 8945823	Nov 4th 8:21 PM Alan & Deano......I stand corrected! I checked all my old catalogs and only the Buescher one says "Gold Burnished inside of bell", not gold washed. It was the letters shed on the end of burnished that stuck in my mind, so that I thought I remembered washed not burnished. I then did some extensive research and found many, many descriptions given by a lot of people using the term "Gold Wash Inside of the Bell"; But I guess it is just one of those things that was mistakingly passed down through time and adopted as the common description of the Gold Burnished Inside of Bell to being described as a Gold Wash! Sorry. But now I will make it a relentless search on my part to find the origin of this term "Gold Wash"!
DeanoTheSaxman (UK) User ID: 0053014	Nov 5th 3:22 AM OK, Cheers for that one Captain.
cmelodysax-uk User ID: 8200143	Nov 5th 3:54 AM Capt/Deano - I reckon that, because of the ease it gets rubbed away, history has latched onto 'gold wash' as an apt description. I should imagine that the gold had to be 'plated' to make it stick (obvious ?), so no lies were told by the manufacturers, but maybe they didn't plate quite as thickly as they should have - thinking, well, it's inside the bell, won't get much wear there........ Arf Arf.
Lewis Pelham. User ID: 9865253	Nov 5th 6:20 AM It is my understanding that "flash gold plating" & "gold wash" are the same thing...not as heavily plated as Gold Plating proper (but please do not ask what the precise difference is). Gold wash is so light as to allow any underlying plated surface to shew through....many gold washes are described as "Rose Gold", which, as I understand it, are previously copper plated with a very thin gold wash applied to allow the colour of the copper to affect the final finish colour.
DeanoTheSaxman (UK) User ID: 0053014	Nov 5th 7:51 AM Alan, I'm working on a Holton, it has gold wash in the bell, although it rubbs off very easily, it's more like a varnish kind of thing, it doesn't appear to be plated, more like a resin sticky feeling when it's polished with silver cleaner, ever noticed how the staining comes off under this stuff when polished???
soybean User ID: 0401124	Apr 25th 5:11 PM (2008) Buyers on ebay can be swayed by pretty pictures and elaborate descriptions. (sadly)